Adoption, Sobriety and Resilience: a conversation with Beth Dubber

Adoption, sobriety and resilience with adult adoptee Beth Dubber

Season 2 episode 3

Rachel: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show, everyone. I am so happy to have Beth Dubber here with me today. She's a very, very busy still photographer, and I can't wait to hear her story. Beth has a unique situation because not only is she, uh, fostered to adopt mom, but she was also adopted herself. She's an adoptee.

Beth: Well, thanks for having me.

I do feel a little nervous because it's a topic of conversation that I don't really talk about often, but I feel like it's a good opportunity to try to verbalize a lot of feelings and emotions. So thank you for that.

Um,

Beth: I have two kids. I have an eight year old. Um, she's a biological daughter that we had through IVF.

I'm an older mom. There's reasons for that, which I'm happy to share.

Rachel: Sure Do do tell I I am too So I always love talking to the older moms because I always feel like i'm 7 000 years old with like really little kids And i'm like, oh my [00:01:00] god, so yeah, I would love to hear all about that. Sure

Beth: And my son is six years old and he is we Adopted him through the L.

A. Foster care.

Rachel: Obviously, if you went through I. V. F. Then you were having trouble with some part of your own fertility journey. And so how many times did you do I. V. F. By the way, just out of curiosity.

Beth: Well, we did the I. U. I. S. Uh huh. We did that to three times and then two rounds of IVF.

Rachel: We did two rounds too, but it didn't ever take so, uh, so you have your one child.

When did you decide that you wanted a second child?

Beth: Well, if I could back up to why I, why I'm so late to the game. Yes. All right. Well, I am a sober alcoholic. I got sober when I was 35. Um, so I was kind of a hot mess before that,

but [00:02:00] I always kind of knew I wanted to have kids or be a parent. And you know, in the media, it's always like, you know, Oh, you can have everything, a career and have your kids later.

No big deal. But no one really tells you how you have those kids later.

Rachel: Very true. Very true. And usually it's like stars and you don't know that they've done IVF like 15 times or something and paid all that money. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I feel you. It's very good.

Beth: Yes. Nobody talks about the declining of your eggs at age 35, you know.

Rachel: Very true.

Beth: I had no idea and so I didn't know. Okay, well that didn't prompt me on my parenthood journey that just for a few years I just really had to get my life together. It took like three to five years really. But at age 39, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I was like, so laser focused on my career because even before I got [00:03:00] sober, I was, um, still, you know, try, I moved to LA to become a still photographer on set.

I mean, back then I would do these grand gesture things. I didn't have any responsibilities of any kind. So I could, move across country, which I moved from Cleveland. And then, you know, at 39 getting, I was diagnosed with stage zero DCIS. And that just means that your breast cancer starts in the milk duct.

And so, you know, I had that treated. I didn't have to have any other Uh, what do you call it? Uh, treatments, and you have to have chemo and everything. But at 39, I was like, wow, you know, I, I really thought I was going to have kids at this point. Right. My laser focus, you know, I didn't even have a boyfriend at the time or anything.

Right. Um, or any partnership of any kind. And so I was like, You know, I really want to have kids. So that's when I go, okay, well, I better start making new decisions on a daily basis. And I was introduced to my new ex [00:04:00] husband and like a year after my diagnosis. So I was still having like, some surgeries and stuff like that.

So, you know, I don't know if you've ever had surgery, but when you have a major surgery, it takes so much more time to recover than maybe the doctors say.

Rachel: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's yeah. There's a difference between something being like quote unquote fixed or whatever and being fully healed. It's such a trauma to the body.

Just the surgery itself is a trauma to the body. I, I had, um, I had a heterotopic pregnancy at one point that was, um, They didn't know what it was. So I had to have like emergency exploratory surgery. It took a really long time for me to recover from that. It really did.

Beth: Yeah, just even getting your energy back.

Rachel: Yeah, absolutely.

Beth: Sometimes it's not even the same after.

Rachel: Right.

Beth: So when I did go into the [00:05:00] IVF world, um, Yeah, then my husband, he was in the Navy and he got called to go to the Middle East. So right in the middle of our IVF journey, he had to go away for 10 months in a combat area. So I was nervous and I was still trying to do the IUIs on my own.

Rachel: And

Beth: yeah. It just, nothing was working out. I think I was just too stressed out about the whole thing.

Rachel: Yeah.

Beth: Then when he came back, um, he had to go away again. And then he came back again, and I'm like, all right, well, let's just try it. We had six. viable embryos left and we implanted three. I did get pregnant.

I had a miscarriage. This is my second miscarriage. And then we had three left and it was about a year later and I just said, okay, let's try again. It wasn't the last time I couldn't do it anymore. Right. 43 when we had implanted.

Rachel: Yeah.

Beth: And one of those did take, and that's our biological daughter who's [00:06:00] eight.

Yeah, that was just, but I had so much trauma and PTSD from the whole journey that I didn't trust the pregnancy. Yeah. And I was scared the whole time, and yeah, it was, Sure. Yeah. It was really difficult.

Rachel: Yeah, I I can totally relate to that. Yeah, I get it. And you know what's interesting too about that? Like at least at the time that I was going through it, which probably is around the same time that you were going through it, people were still not talking about this kind of stuff at all.

All so I suffered in silence through the whole thing like my close friends knew what I was going through but nobody else did like, and it was just so painful like on an emotional level, and dealing with social media and seeing people's happy families all over social media and then you know just all of that loss.

Tremendous. Just [00:07:00] tremendous.

Beth: I'm sorry. No, go,

Rachel: go for it. Yeah. Jump in.

Beth: Stories that just occurred to me. I was going to like a support group and uh, for infertility or fertility, whatever you want to call it. And it was a great group of women, but one time our, our place was closed for renovations. So a few of us decided we'd go to this park and just meet.

Okay. That would be nice. Well, there was, um, And it was a mariachi band and we're like, what is that party over there? It was kind of loud. And it was, uh, it was a baby shower.

Rachel: Oh

Beth: God. Not triggering at all. I was laughing so hard. I thought, I thought it was hilarious. I mean, it's like women here, like, yeah, it's feelings, but like I had to just lighten it up because you can just, yeah, I don't know.

I'm just, I go towards humor more. Than anything. Than anything. Right. And there [00:08:00] were, I remember there was one woman who was just really upset, like really, really upset. And, um, I was just trying not to laugh and it wasn't at her or anything. I didn't wanna be insensitive, but , it's not, it was just like, you can't, this stuff,

Rachel: especially with the mariachi band, it's not even like, it was a quiet thing.

It was like there's a mariachi band. Yep. That's funny.

Beth: Oh yeah. And then, oh. My first time, my first round of IVF, they implanted right away after we did the egg retrieval, and I had, um, I ended up having, you know, a pregnancy with an IVF. a miscarriage, but also I had complications from the IVF. I can't remember exactly what it was, but I had these pouches blowing up in my abdomen

Rachel: and

Beth: I didn't know what it was.

But then finally when I described the symptoms to my gynecologist or person who was helping me get pregnant, they said, you got to just go to the ER. And I did. And like they couldn't figure [00:09:00] it out. They sent me home. I had to go back to the ER two days

later.

Um, and I really thought there was a point I was at Cedars for seven days and no one could figure out what was wrong with me.

Wow. And I thought I might die. I really thought I might die. And, um, my husband then, I was in the Middle East.

Mm-hmm .

Beth: And uh, finally they did a pelvic wash and I got on some IV antibiotics for days.

Rachel: Mm-hmm .

Beth: Mm-hmm . And so I don't know what that was about. They never

Rachel: found out what it was about. No. But

Beth: then

Rachel: I, weird,

Beth: I only read one book about IVF and some, um, if you have.

I only read that one time and I can't remember where I read it. It was like a fleeting little article and then I lost it, but it was, I think it had to do with the IVF and the inflammation and the hyper, um, ovulation had An effect on my pelvic region.

Rachel: Sure.

Beth: Um, [00:10:00] anyway, that was super suffering and silence.

Oh, so then they, like, that was my point with the whole story is they ran out of room in Cedars and they put me in the maternity ward.

I had to laugh, I was like hilarious, like the irony, and I mean, I was like really like walking around and like, With my little IV and yeah, yeah, look at the new babies now everyone's so excited and happy and I'm like, okay I feel like this is just a sign that it will happen for me.

Rachel: Yes

Beth: Chose to take it as

Rachel: I love that

Beth: because I saw a lot of people smiling and happy and I had a choice in that Moment to be like it just like at the park.

I had a choice. I could either you know It's okay to feel upset and sad about it, but I just chose to, like, laugh at the universe and the irony of all of it.

Rachel: That's so beautiful and so important, I feel like, [00:11:00] to, um, have that kind of optimism or open, open heart about this kind of stuff because, yeah, like, you don't know.

You don't know how it's going to happen. Like, I felt the same. I, I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm meant to be a mom. Don't know how it's going to happen, but. I'm pretty sure it's going to happen. So yeah, I, I hear you.

Beth: And someone else had said that to me too. Like, if you feel like you're going to be a parent, you will be at some point.

It doesn't have to be on your timeline or how you want it. Right.

Rachel: How you imagined it. Yep.

Beth: Yeah, the way you imagine it. That's a good way to put it.

Rachel: Yep. Yeah, yeah, I had an acupuncturist who once told me, you know, everyone ends up with the right baby. And I was like, what? Like, at the time, I didn't understand what she was talking about.

And I was just like, and I kind of was like, well, what do you mean? And she was like, well, you know, it doesn't matter like how they come, but like they come and like everyone gets the right one. And I [00:12:00] still like left feeling like, ew, like I'm so that I'm now I'm annoyed, but man, I've never forgotten that.

And it's proven to be so true. Like I was annoyed

too when I heard that.

I wanted how I want it when I want it.

Right. That's right. That's right. And at every turn, I kept thinking, Oh, now it's going to work out. And all of this other stuff, you know, was so that this one thing that I thought, like the way that it should work out, it would work out.

And then like, that's not at all how it happened. And that's totally fine. Like it, it ended, I ended up with the most wonderful kids in the world that are my kids for sure. And so, yeah, anyway, that's just. And I listened

Beth: to your earlier episodes on your podcast, so I knew. Oh, thank you.

Rachel: Oh, cool.

Beth: Yeah, that was really sweet.

Yeah.

Rachel: Um, so, okay, so you have your, your baby, very difficult, Um, probably took a long time to recover from that and think about going in again, or you were just [00:13:00] kind of clear that you were not going to do that again. Is that, is that the case?

Beth: I was clear I wasn't going to do it again because I was 44 and I didn't want to go through that egg retrieval process again.

You know, those hormones and pills shots you have to take because I, Because especially when I thought I was going to die in the hospital of whatever, no one knew what it was. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not doing that. Plus at 44, I don't know what quality my eggs are. Right. And you know, I mean, I was tapped out terms financially.

So I was like, I do want another kid. And I never thought That I, I never thought I would really adopt, but I did feel kind of called to adopt and not all adoptees feel that way in the adoptee community is some are very anti adoption.

Rachel: Yeah.

Beth: Um, which is fine. You know, that's, you know, everyone's gonna have their own opinions and beliefs.

And like, I can only speak from my experience, obviously. But I really wanted to, yeah, to [00:14:00] complete our family. Sure. But I also wanted to be, like, open our homes and heart to somebody who Or a little, you know, a baby who doesn't have a home who needs a home, right, is my intention of the whole thing.

Rachel: And were you separated from your husband at that point?

Or were you still together?

Beth: No, we were still together. Okay. Yeah, we were both on board. You know, it was a challenging journey and you both kind of have to be like on board for it.

Rachel: Absolutely. And did you decide right away that you would go through the foster care system? Or were you looking into other kinds of adoption?

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Beth: I was looking at foster care for sure because, um, of my experience as an adoptee, I didn't really want to go through all that, but I was just curious about it. So I just asked people when they adopt, and I found out a lot. I'm glad that adoption is different than it was back when I was born, um, because I was adopted into a private, it was a private way, like it was closed records.

So. Uh huh. [00:15:00] It was permanently sealed by the government. Senators making decisions about this in Ohio saying, you know, from this state to this state, adoptees will never get their original birth certificates. And when you just place them in a family, you just don't talk about it anymore. And even if. your mom, the biological mother wants to get in touch with you.

That's closed. There's no, there's no list for that. There's nothing like you can never find out who that person is. Just, you know, be adopted and be grateful.

Rachel: Oh my God. And, and How does that make you feel? How did it make you feel? How? I want to get into all of that if you're willing and want to talk about it.

I mean, because what comes up for me initially is like, rage. Like, why would I not be allowed to know part of my own story? Like, that's insane.

But you, you tell me because obviously I'm not, you're the person with the [00:16:00] experience.

Beth: No, I, I appreciate the empathy. Um, I don't even think a lot of people can do that, you know?

Okay. So I have a really interesting story about that. Okay. In 2017. I was working on a show up in Northern California, um, 13 reasons why I was the set photographer on there. And, uh, great, I mean, great experience, great cast, great crew. I was super lucky to have the job. And I would fly up from LA once a week and work about three to four days a week there and then I'd fly back.

And at that point, you know, I had my oldest daughter, she was one year old, no, maybe almost two. And we decided to enter. The foster care program. So meanwhile, I'm up in this really small town called Sebastopol and in this little tiny hotel, I see a sign that says adoptees, uh, support group, something about adoptees and support group.

And I was like, [00:17:00] Oh, I can't remember. Yeah. It was very odd. I was like, okay. And it was right at the end of the hall of where I was, you know, my room was, it was on the second floor. I would have never gone by it. Right. And. So I went in there like I was about a half hour late and I'm used to like the support groups and stuff because I mean of my sober recovery and I mean, I'll easily go to a peer support group, but it's great.

I always get something from it. Even if it's totally insane. Um, it's entertaining at least, you know. I go in there and everyone just stared at me. They're just like, and so this is like something I'd never been into. And I was like, wow, why is everyone staring? They go, you know what this is? And I was like, well, yeah, I'm about to enter, you know, be an adoptive mom.

So I thought this was a support group for that. And they're like, no, this is for adult adoptees. And I was like, oh, I'm an adult adoptee too. I qualify. Yeah. We were just all looking at each other like, [00:18:00] what? It totally seemed like a lie because I was like, yeah, I'm going to be here, I'm going to say whatever.

Whatever. Whatever.

You know,

Beth: right. I never really, I don't bring this with me on a daily basis. It's not something I think about all the time, you know, right. So they reminded me of that, but it really just took that 30 minutes of them just talking. And in 30 minutes, I related so much with so many things that I heard, but I never heard anyone ever in my whole world in life ever, ever, ever talk about.

And I was in my forties. And in 30 minutes, it was like an unraveling of four decades of being like, socialized of how to feel as an adoptee because when I was being raised, it was like, you don't talk about it. Right. And if you have questions about it, it made my parents feel bad and then they felt rejected.

And so I took that on. Right. You know, I'm not going to talk about it to my parents because that hurts them. But I'll do it on my own and figure it [00:19:00] out, which I did later. And anytime I ever, I remember to like even some cousins and uncles and like things, if I would say anything about being adopted, they were like, well, aren't you grateful?

I mean, you were spared from this awful life. Yeah. And you know, like there was no space anywhere to have feelings about being an adoptee. So I was really conditioned. I just stuffed it. I stuffed it, you know? Sure.

Rachel: Yeah, I think it's, it's changing. I think it's that that is still there. But I do think it's changing.

I think that social media, like one of the great things about social media is connecting people who have similar experiences and being able to share those experiences. So I follow some adult adoptees and because I want to know. this perspective because obviously both of my children are that's their lived experience and will be There's a book.

I think I mentioned it to you in the email when we were first talking. Um, you should be grateful It's called [00:20:00] which uh by angela tucker. I want to say her last name is tucker on instagram. She's angela adoptee It's it's a wonderful book that I I think really all adoptive moms should probably read because it's just it's another piece That again, nobody ever You talked about that much.

And so I'm so grateful for you for sharing your perspective on that. I remember when I was, when I was little, it was like, oh, so and so's adopted. Is there shame around it? Yeah. Did you feel that shame even when you were little, or did you not even realize that you felt that?

Beth: Right. Yeah, both of those things.

Um, I could say that, well, what I experienced in those 30 minutes of the unraveling of the social conditioning, there's a term for that, it's called out of the fog. And I really went into that and I even started a photo series along these lines. And I have an image that shows out of the fog from me, from my perspective.

Oh, that's so awesome.

Rachel: I would love to see that. [00:21:00] It sounds amazing.

Beth: It was like a radiator for six months. It's like. I had so much anger and steam that I was like trying to be okay, but I really wasn't okay. Yeah. And I just had to like let it go a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. And so this was like pre pandemic and I found there was no really Zoom, but there was no adult adoptee support groups in LA.

It was all like in the San Francisco area. And, um, I found one in Ohio that began in Ohio, actually, and they were on this video call once a month, that, and there's a podcast called Adoptees On, where my lifeline to get through this time, because I was learning so much of all the feelings that like preverbal trauma that I feel, things I can't handle.

Still to this day, like, all I can tell you is when I talk about these things is I feel a real heaviness on my chest.

Rachel: Mm hmm.

Beth: Chipped away at it through therapy and through reading books and having support groups and things like that, but it's still there, [00:22:00] you know. Yes. Like, still, it's a core thing, you know.

You feel

Rachel: it even now, like, when you're talking about it?

Beth: Yeah, I'm perspiring right now and I feel not as heavy as I did back in 2017, that's for sure.

Rachel: Right. Right, right.

Beth: I have tools

Rachel: today. Right. It's amazing that you even have the awareness, like the body awareness, I'm, that's something that I have only just been learning in the last couple of years and, and still pretty new in my journey with somatics and really understanding like what, cause I had trauma in my childhood and.

Um, I was never even really aware of what you're talking about, like, until, you know, recently and, uh, and it's, it's amazing to get tuned into that and to really feel it physically and to be like, ah, okay, that's this, that, that thing again, good for you, I'm so happy for you, what, what a gift. What a gift from the universe that you saw that sign, like, I love things like [00:23:00] that.

That's like so amazing that like you could have totally missed the sign, but like there you were, the sign was there right where you, yeah, that was amazing.

Beth: Well, I was a new mom and I was exhausted, so it was, I think it was helpful that I was away. From my baby that I could start to have this healing before I entered as a foster mom.

Rachel: Yes. Yes. Since all of that healing and sort of awareness and your journey, your personal journey with your adoption, have you spoken to your parents about any of this and what's their, how did they feel about it?

Beth: Um, well, everyone is deceased, biological. Okay. Okay. Adoptive, which are my real families.

Everyone's like, what's your real families? The ones who raised me. Right. Dad died before around. I found out he somehow found out or asked me if I had ever looked. And I said, yes. And I found out who she was, but she was deceased and maybe a little bit of the [00:24:00] story. Yeah.

Rachel: He was open to hearing it. at that point.

That in in and of itself, like discovering that she was deceased must have been difficult. And and also sidebar, how did you, if the records were sealed, how did you go about finding out about your biological

Beth: parents? There is this, okay, first of all, Ancestry and Ancestry and 23andMe and all that. Yes.

There's this awesome non profit group in Cleveland that's just specifically for Ohio adoptees that there's this wonderful woman named Betsy Norris, who lobbied for like 20 years. To get those sealed documents, those OBCs, as we call 'em, the original birth certificates unsealed. And so I, as I was going through this healing and I was, saw this group on Facebook and then I, you know, called them and talked to them, it's like

Rachel: mm-hmm

Beth: Hundred dollars a year for the membership. And there's like this woman, Tracy, who is a genealogical [00:25:00] expert.

Rachel: Mm-hmm .

Beth: Even if my, my biological mother had been deceased for a while before all of these things, like, she knew how to trace it based on other people who have gotten their DNA done and also through, like, news clippings and, you know, like, she just did a lot of research.

Rachel: Yeah.

Beth: It's like an original birth certificate. First name, like most adoptees, was Baby Girl.

Rachel: Right. Yes. Yeah.

Beth: Because my son's name was Baby Boy and his as well.

Rachel: Mine was, yeah, Baby Boy Doe. I don't know why they add the Doe, D O E, baby boy Doe. Yeah, and then he had a number actually. And when I would, when I would go to any appointment or whatever, I would have to say, uh, you know, baby boy 68402.

Like, so impersonal and ridiculous. Like, you know, luckily the people at UCLA, because I was in LA at the time, they would [00:26:00] say, well, what's his name? What are you calling him? And Dominic, and so then, you know, that. But it was a little bit dehumanizing to have a number and to have to use the number on all the forms for two years before we adopted him.

Yeah. Okay. So getting back to you want to have another child, you were thinking specifically foster care system because you wanted to give somebody a chance who might not otherwise. Have one. Did you go through an agency? Did you go straight through the county? And what was that process like for you?

Beth: I, um, I went through Children's Bureau.

Okay. an FFA, which I can't remember what the FFA stands for right now.

Rachel: Foster Family Agency.

Beth: Yeah, that's is I highly recommend, highly, highly, highly recommend going through a service like that. Um, because going directly to the county is where I hear a lot of horror stories. Yeah. My gosh, so we went to Children's Bureau and they have the classes where you get certified.[00:27:00]

And we both learned a lot. So, I mean, I really feel like they set us up. They really did set us up for like what to expect as a foster family or resource family as they called it. But we were still all in, you know, you can drop out right after those classes. Right. But they, I thought they were great. And um, yeah.

Well, another funny story in that I guess is I also realized the level of traumas I've had in my life because I don't know if they did this in your class, but like they'll say they give the long list of things just to give you an idea of the traumas that your foster child has been through. Right. Raise your hand if you've had trauma.

You know, you've been divorced, or you're dead, or your parents have died, or, and you keep your hand up, and you keep your hand up. Well, okay, so I won the trauma contest. I mean, like, everybody's hands were down. And I gotta tell you, the instructors were looking at me like, like, I have [00:28:00] tools. I've done a lot of therapy.

Right.

Rachel: And I also think, like, all of that, really helps you, it equips you to deal with another child, to help another child who has trauma, right? Because I really felt that too, I felt like The traumas that I sustained in my, my life, in my childhood, really, I knew that I was going to be able to relate to someone with trauma.

I knew it wasn't going to be the same trauma, but I, I know trauma and I've, I've journeyed out of trauma. So I knew that that would be an asset for me and for the child or children that, that we were going to adopt. So did you have that feeling too?

Beth: Yeah, I mean, I still do. And I feel like. Having passed, you know, it's not like necessarily a requisite, you know, to become a resource for you.

Rachel: Absolutely.

Beth: But, um, I feel like it is an asset only if you've gotten [00:29:00] out of it, like, say, and you get tools from it through therapy or through any kind of programs or you have perspective, you know, and you have like a mental awareness and a solid ground and a regulation, you know, like. Your, your motions are regulated, regulated because I know, I know a lot of people with unprocessed trauma and now that I have gotten better over the years, I can't really be around them because it's triggering or exhausting and it's like, wow, I wish they would like get help for whatever is ailing them because something is up.

Ailing them, you know, right?

Rachel: Yeah, I do. I do. Are there moments just jumping to the present? Are there moments in your parenting where your trauma comes up? And how do you deal with that? Yeah,

I think so. Asking for a friend?

Rachel: No, .

Beth: Just . I think, [00:30:00] uh, the only, I only know how to speak from the heart and to be rigorously honest and uh mm-hmm

I think that one of my biggest core issues is abandonment.

Rachel: Mm-hmm .

Beth: And I acknowledge it and I feel it. I'm aware of it. And sometimes, and I know that parents feel this way, even if. They don't have that core issue. But mine, I feel like, is directly related. Like everyone I've ever loved has really left me, like everyone pretty much.

Mm-hmm. And that's what I'm used to. So I have this like, irrational fear that my kids are gonna leave or that I'm gonna die or early. Mm-hmm. And they're not gonna have me around, you know, or Sure. Yeah. What's gonna happen to them? Um, it's like every day and I just try to, I just try to like. Just know it's an irrational thought, you know?

Yes, yes, yes. And sometimes, [00:31:00] yeah, I mean, I'm sure, and I know I'm going to screw up my kids somehow that I'm unaware of. Right, right, right. We can only do our best, right? Right.

Rachel: Yeah, it's true. It's true. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a journey. I feel like parenting really, really brings up stuff, you know, it just

Beth: It's like an uncomfortable mirror.

Rachel: Yeah, it is. It really is.

Beth: They're right there. Their kids are like reflecting everything.

Rachel: Yeah.

Beth: Oh my gosh.

Rachel: Yeah, totally. And then, then some things that are like, wildly different. Like I, my daughter has always been really good about speaking up for herself and like what she's going through or like what she's experiencing.

I'll never forget the first time I took her to a swimming lesson, she was probably like four or something. And She was terrified and she started screaming and crying and she was [00:32:00] like, I'm scared. I want my mommy. And like she was just screaming and I was so impressed. I was like you go girl like I'm so impressed that you're able to express yourself in this way like you know that you're able to just say I'm scared because I didn't know how to do that.

Like I did everything. totally afraid without saying it. Like I just did. I thought I had to just shut up and do the thing all the time, regardless. And that was all the way from a little kid through teenager, you know, you shut up and you just do the thing and secretly down underneath your, your, hating it or you're frozen or you're whatever the trauma response is, but I was not able to express myself in that manner.

And I shared that with a therapist once and she was like, you know, Rachel, that really speaks to the safety that you're providing this child, that she feels like she is able to express those feelings. And I was like, Oh, wow, [00:33:00] that's such a nice way of looking at it. I never thought of it that way. You know, like, I think it's a little bit of both.

I think she's also just really expressed, but I also think that other thing must be true as well.

Beth: Absolutely. Yeah, that's, and I learned that too. Like, you know, I, my traumas in my family growing up and not, you know, recognizing that I'm genetically different than them, even though they're Caucasian and I'm Caucasian, I was always other, I always felt different.

You know, it's like, It's okay to, like, recognize that and then provide the safety for the child to recognize that because my son is, um, Hispanic and he, in the sun, his skin's getting darker and we are all very, very white and our skin is very white and he's just been noticing that this summer and. He's like, well, mommy, why is my skin this color?

Is it, when I grow up, is it going to [00:34:00] be like your color? And, you know, like, oh my gosh, I don't, I just, I don't even know if what I'm saying is the right thing to him, but you know, What do you say? I say like, um, I just try to explain the pigmentation is just different and we're all the same. We have the same hearts and we all love each other and it doesn't matter what color your skin is.

But I also say, and okay, so one difference that I'm making a conscious effort from, like my parents, my mom told me at age six, which my little adoptee, Alex is age six. And I just say adoptee, he's my son, you know, um, I don't acknowledge that difference at all. Right. Um, But they told me as an event, like, Beth, come here, stop me from playing.

And it's like, have to tell you something. And it's something you can't tell anyone. Um, because, you know, your friends will probably make fun of you, [00:35:00] and, you know, and honestly, and I know my parents, they love me. Yeah, no, of course. Like, as a six year old, I don't know, I did have a lot of shame around it, so.

Rachel: Wow, wait, wait, wait, wait,

Beth: I'm sorry,

Rachel: that is like. I just have to pause there for a minute. That is a lot to just at six years old to just so you had no idea previously and then you you were playing or something and then they just sat you down. Did you have siblings or?

Beth: Yeah, I had an older sister. She's also deceased.

Um, she's nine years older than me and she was biological.

Rachel: Okay. Okay. So then they told you that. And then were you just like, okay. And then it was just like, go back to playing and like, that was it. Or like what happened after that?

Beth: Well, okay. So that's the, that is the problem. Like I'll tell you, I have a lot to say about that.

Yeah, please. For my son, I'm making it not an event, but [00:36:00] a normalized conversation. Yeah, you were adopted, but I was too, my mommy was, and like, you know, this is what happens. Yep, I, you know, I didn't have you, but you know, you had a mommy who did, but she was very ill and she couldn't take care of you. So now you're with us and you're my son and we love you, you know, and I say those things because you need to repeat it.

Rachel: Yes.

Beth: So, the event that my mom told me when I was, that she took me away from playing, told me this thing, dropped this bomb in my head, I didn't know what to say. Right. And she explained it to me. I'm like, well, can I just go back to play? And then, yeah, because I needed to process and then, you know, it takes time to process.

Of course. And then when I had questions. That's when I noticed that they were super uncomfortable, uncomfortable about the questions. They really didn't want to answer the questions. They didn't like leave that space for questions, but this was the seventies. So I mean, we were very waspy. We didn't talk about anything.

Rachel: Right.

Beth: Right. [00:37:00] Conflicting. Um, so I feel like that's the one thing I am doing that I feel like, you know, I'm is good for my son is just trying to normalize the conversation.

Rachel: Yes.

Beth: Answer any questions he has at whatever time of day it is, you know, and be like, no, no, no, no. And I take it seriously. I look him in the eye and we talk, like scrolling on my phone going, you know, try to be present with him.

And, um, you know, I did not have that. But I think like Gen X largely did not have that. Right. I know.

Rachel: Yeah. No, I mean, they didn't talk about anything back then. That was like the, the source of my, the biggest source of my trauma was not this, the event that was, I mean, the, the event was horrible too in my childhood, but it was the not talking about it for my entire life and feeling like I had a secret.

[00:38:00] a secret shame that I had to carry that I could not ever reveal, but was like a really, really bad part of me because nobody wanted to talk about it. Nobody acknowledged that it happened and you know, and that, that is a hundred percent. So yeah, as much as it's really tough because with my daughter, like she used to say it a lot, she's not saying it so much anymore, but like she would, she would always be like, Oh, when I was in your tummy, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Or like I was in your tummy, right? Like one of her teachers was pregnant at school and she would be like, yeah, just like when I was in your tummy and it's like so hard to have to say, well, you weren't in my tummy, honey, you were in my heart. You weren't in my tummy though, because I have to do that because I don't want her to and I don't know whether she's saying that because she actually really thinks that she was in my tummy or whether she is saying that because she wants to believe [00:39:00] that or she wants to change that narrative or whatever it is.

I'm still not really sure. And it makes me sad. It makes me sad because I wish that that was the case. I do. And, and I, I kind of believe, and she's said this before too, and I don't know again whether she's picking up on what I want to believe and then saying that or whether she really, she said she was in my, my belly and she tried to come to me.

She saw me and that she wanted to come. And then it didn't work out and she had to find a different way to come, not in so many words, but I kind of piece that together from what she had said to me when she was very little. So I don't know what, because I, I was previously pregnant. So who knows if that was true or if it wasn't, I like to think it was, you know, um, but we'll never know.

And, uh, yeah, it's just, it's a tender. It's just a tender part of our story together. That, you know, that's the fact.

Beth: Yeah.

Rachel: [00:40:00] I'm so glad you brought up the transracial thing. Um, when we adopted my son, he's African American. And so Izzy really had a difficult time. She, noticed, very much noticed how different he looked from us.

And so she had this weird thing where she was like, he's not really a part of our family because we all look the same. And this is when she was littler, like when he first came in style and as he was, his skin was getting darker and it was. It freaked me out and mortified me, and I have had many conversations with her about race and about all kinds of stuff.

But also just starting with that, like, yes, you're right. We do have different color skins and we are different because Dominic is adopted just like you are, but he had different biological family. You had Filipino and Japanese, and Dominic has African American and Armenian, but aren't we awesome, like an awesome blended family that we [00:41:00] all look different.

But I think for her, her wish of having us be this biological unit was kind of shattered with him because he looks so different and would sort of blow her cover in a weird way. Does that make sense? And again, I'm kind of like just, I'm playing therapist here saying this, and we actually are going to be starting her in therapy just to like, so she has a safe space.

to talk about all this stuff. But, um, I think it, it always bothers her when she sees us when we're out and we don't all look the same, you know, when we see other families and they're out and they all the kids look the same and they look like their parents and she doesn't have that. Her brother doesn't look like her.

And I know that she experiences that other, that otherness without saying it. And, um, again, there's nothing I can do about that. That's something that we have to deal with. Live with and work through.

Beth: Yeah, I think just acknowledging it, first of all, you know, talking about it, being [00:42:00] willing to talk about it and just reinforcing the, what the truth is and the facts.

Like the facts are pretty neutral, um, but just, you know, being consistent with the narrative over the years, because there's always the same question over and over again with kids.

Rachel: Mm hmm.

Beth: And that's the, I, the way I can relate with that one is that, um, I'm divorced now. And our little one was like two, maybe when we got divorced and our older one was like four, or maybe one and a half and four or something like that.

And the four year old was, oh, it cried a lot. Daddy wasn't home, you know, we're in separate houses. So she feels different because most of her kids, her friends at school, their parents are married. Right. There's only a couple of us that are like divorced and that's why.

Rachel: That'll change.

Beth: That'll change as

Rachel: [00:43:00] she gets older, I'm sure.

I'm sure.

Beth: And yeah, I mean, relationships are tough. So I'm happy that. for any couple that can stay together and weather the storms.

Rachel: Right. Had you finalized the adoption of your son before you guys split up or after?

Beth: Ours happened so quick in, in terms of the process, as you know, can take a very long time depending.

So, Alex was born in 2018 and we adopted like 18 months after.

Rachel: Wow. That is fast.

Beth: And that was in, at the end of 2019 and so pre pandemic, um, and we divorced in 2021. Um. Okay. Well, I asked him to leave at the end of 2020, so. And then we were separated and, you know, it took a while to get the paperwork done.

Sure, yeah. So the finalization was the end of 2021.

Rachel: Okay, and are you co parenting together [00:44:00] still or no?

Beth: Yeah, I mean, this is funny part is like, he's like living here again. Oh my God. Like, we're like, we're just friends. We're like roommates. We're great co parents. It's like, I love, I love this guy like a family member, you know, really good dad.

And, um, he's going through a hard time and I am too. I'm in the film industry, so I haven't been working.

And then he had lost his job too. So we're kind of just helping each other out. And the kids are extremely happy that we're both around. We don't, we get along, we don't fight. Right. But it's just like, yeah, but I'm like, this is a season.

Rachel: It's a season. Right. Like it'll. It'll do you have separate rooms or you stay? That's maybe too much information, but

Beth: I know I'm really very honest about it. Honestly, like he sleeps. They have a kid has a king size bed. Um, so they just sleep in the king size bed and I have my own room and Our oldest daughter [00:45:00] has her own room.

Rachel: Okay.

Beth: Um, cause I had this idea of like, I like to travel during the summers because the kids are out of school so long and I toss up on Airbnb, so we put like large beds in all the rooms, basically. Uh huh. Right. Right. Yep.

Rachel: Yeah.

Beth: So like, yeah, I'm chatting with you. Like, we're just girlfriends on the phone with each other, but not to the world.

Rachel: I mean, I actually think it's fascinating and I think it would be good for people to hear about the different. Combos and the different because it's like, really, if it works for you, then it works for you, then that's great. And, um, I can see how it would be for the children thinking like, Oh, mom and dad getting back together.

Like, you know, is it that way for the eight year old?

Beth: No, because I, I make it clear. Plus they do spend part of the time at grandma's. Um, sometimes, and, uh, I, like, normally when he's working, I have the kids from Sunday through Friday.

And,

Beth: um, so [00:46:00] I, I mostly have, we're a hundred percent amicable. I have them most of the time.

I do the juggling, um, I figure it all out, but he's just been around a lot more since he lost a job recently and, you know, um, but yeah, it's like, we're amicable, but they, we don't give the kids any illusion, like they're going to be at grandma's for a You know, I feel like it's all it's like the best case scenario for it really is.

I think it

Rachel: is. I think that's wonderful. If you can be friends and do it like that. I think that's great. And it's great for the kids.

Beth: I feel very lucky because I do have a lot of divorced friends who are, you know, put through the ringer. Yes. And emotionally, you know, yeah.

Rachel: Absolutely. How, what's the relationship like between your son and your daughter and has there ever been any, like when you first brought him home, was, was she so little that it just kind of was like a natural thing or what's that like?

Beth: I always laugh at that because, [00:47:00] um, my, my eldest, I think she was like two and a half close to three. And. We got Alex, he was five days old and the social worker dropped him off at the house and he was six, six pounds. He was underweight. He was just a little paper bag with like two things in it. And um, so our daughter was like fully accepted him immediately.

Here's your brother. And we didn't say it that the first day because they say, like, you know, in the classes because you don't know how it's going to go. That's right. If you're going to adopt or you're just going to be there to foster and then they get reunified with their biological family. So we didn't say that at first.

We said, um, Oh, here's, you know, like, we're gonna, he's going to be like a brother to you. And, you know, he's going to be with us for a little bit. And loved him immediately. Like tried to hug him and, She's always been that way with him, even now. I mean, they argue and bicker and fight and all that stuff, [00:48:00] but she's loving and always wants to hug him.

Rachel: Oh, that's so sweet. And, and did you, so you got to name him, you named him Alex. Well,

Beth: I heard that his biological mother just through the social workers named him Alex. So then I, we didn't have a name or anything picked out and I didn't know if we were going to adapt for a while. So I just left it. for his mom.

Because I just want to acknowledge the first mother's trauma. Because every woman who gives up their child for adoption, there's trauma for her. You know, we always forget that part of this conversation, and that part of the triangle. We all come with trauma. So like, Three sides of this triangle get together and we're all traumatized people.

Like maybe it's a couple or a single mom or dad who want to adopt and they just for lack of whatever, you know, there's trauma in their life because they're missing something, you know? And then there's trauma from the first mother, [00:49:00] which is the biological mother, because a lot of times they don't want to be separated from their child.

I'd say most times, you know, as situations They're not getting the help they need and they just want to give this child a better life. That is going to be extremely traumatizing and then not to mention for the child because of Just the nonverbal preverbal trauma that exists. Um, there's a book called the primal wound that Was really meaningful to me and it really helped me a lot and I would suggest to anyone on that triangle Okay, thank you.

Talk a lot about the pre verbal trauma of adoptees. So I, I just wanted to do as much as I could for a biological mother, his biological mother. She had some mental health issues and she wasn't taking her medication. And it's like, I just feel like she just dropped through the system. Like the system really was trying to help [00:50:00] her, but.

If she wasn't taking her medication, no one can force her to take the medication, but she didn't have the support or resources of people in her life to like really help her take her medication, you know? Yes. And then it's like, how do you navigate that? And um, I gotta tell you, one of the hardest decisions I've made on this whole journey is making that decision to close the adoption because I came from that closed system, you know?

And the reason I did, and I talked about it with a lot of different people. Um, and I know the adoptee community hates me right now for saying this, but I did it because of her mental illness. And I thought of like, okay, is it best for him to be around a mentally unstable mother figure as in the foundational years of his life?

I feel like I took that away from him. You know, and that kills me, like it kills me every day, like that decision. He's gonna be so mad at me at some point about it [00:51:00] and I'm mad at myself, but at the same time I made that decision because I feel like it was best for him, but I don't know if that's going to be true.

But what I did do was I saved his original birth certificate because that's not going to be anywhere in the system

and I wanted to see it. I took pictures, I documented, um, I took notes. Um, for him to read later, you know, I just did as much documentation as I could because as a deaf, we want photographs, we want history, we want stories, you know, and that's the best I can provide to him are the stories of my experience with his biological mother and so called biological father, but I, I don't see it.

I really don't think that this one person is biologically,

Beth: but, um, he was kind of a scary dude. He was definitely on drugs and. Every time we had visitation, he would have to leave every 10 minutes and, and yeah, it was just, um, it was always very scary time.

Rachel: Did they come together for the visitations, the mom and the, and the [00:52:00] possible potential dad?

At first they did,

Beth: and then, And then it was just her. And then once in a while it would be just him. And when it was just him, I made sure my ex would go because I just didn't feel safe.

Rachel: They weren't supervised like you didn't have like a social worker or somebody there

did have it. And then

Beth: They said that they couldn't make it to the supervised place because it was and I was trying to like really meet them halfway and meet them where they are because they did, you know, I got their location and then we really worked to find a middle point and something that was on the bus line for them and it was nowhere near the space where they could have had supervised visits. So we just took it on and we would report it and we'd call the social worker after every visitation. Once in a while, they wouldn't show up at all. Um, but we really went out of our way to like, see if that consistency could happen for them, [00:53:00] to see if they were doing the work as parents, like to get.

him back?

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.

Beth: We did everything we could to facilitate because I felt like that was my role and I really took it to heart. My role was to and bond with the baby, even though people are afraid of that. But that's what babies need to bond. That was number one for me. And number two was, yes, I'm going to help facilitate a biological reunification.

If that's what it's meant to be, then that's what it's going to be.

Rachel: Yep.

Beth: I really took that to heart. I wasn't like, uh, you know, I like, I did want to adopt him, of course, but it wasn't going to get in that way.

Rachel: Yep. Yeah. So, so how did it, why did it go so fast for like, did they, did biological parents decide like, we are not going to, we can't pursue this any longer or did they just not show up to their stuff and then they, it just, because usually they don't terminate parental rights so quickly.

Right. Exactly.

Beth: They did because this was the [00:54:00] birth mom's fourth child and the other three had been adopted to two other families.

Okay.

Beth: And so those other families were approached, but not for like two months. Like I had already had the baby for about two months when the families were approached about him to keep the siblings together at least.

One of the moms, I did meet her because they did put us together and she's lovely. Um, the other family doesn't want. any contact whatsoever. And so I just, you know, but at least this other mom, she kind of lives near me. We've gotten together and she's, she's great. And she's like, they did contact me, but I just knew that you had him for, Yeah.

It would be pretty traumatizing. And then it was, it was very sudden for her too, like, Oh, do you want a baby? You know? Right. Yeah. And then you got to go through the whole certification thing. So even if you said yes, it would still probably take another six months to get certified, you know? [00:55:00] So she, she just said no for those reasons.

Rachel: And will you stay connected with her, um, so that the kids can know each other growing up and all of that?

Beth: Yeah.

Rachel: That's so great. That's really special. And I think

Beth: they're just half siblings. I think they just have the same mom, um, look, just by looking at them, that they look a lot different. So. Right.

Rachel: Right.

But how great for the, for those kids to be able to have that connection to their biological family.

Beth: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah, I do, like I said, I'm doing everything I feel like I can do to help foster that, you know? Right. I don't know. I'm still not going to make everybody on the triangle happy, but it's

okay.

Rachel: Well, I think you're, you're doing an amazing job. The depth of your experience and what you can speak to is, is really so great. I want to go back just for a minute and revisit the um, pre birth [00:56:00] trauma piece. And is there a way, um, obviously I'm going to read that book, is there a way to address that? Like, how do you, um, address that?

And you know, is that, that's something that you yourself have experienced also? And then your, your children or your child, Alex, would also have experienced that most likely.

Beth: Yeah, but I, but also we're softer, we are softer cushions, I feel like for them to land with that. Okay. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like maybe because of my decades of having to stifle how I really felt about any, any feelings of being an adoptee were just like shut down.

I just have to say this. There was a Huntington, um, there was an adoptee who wrote something and I read the comments and the comments were so triggering to me because it was all like, God, you can't do anything good these days. Everyone's all mad. You may have been in an [00:57:00] FD, like why aren't you just grateful?

Like it was just like, but like hundreds of these same comments. So it really rings home to me. Like, yeah, I am like, I have an open heart and like I want to bond with these babies and I want to also give them space to like feel and heal. you know, the trauma, but like, it's okay to be grateful and also be really angry.

Like you can hold those two at the same time because it's called being human. But I feel like the people who are angry about us being angry just need to learn a little compassion and like, maybe they don't have a lot of compassion for themselves that they can't really give it to other people. I mean, And I just remember I was at work and I was reading the comments and I was like, I screenshotted so many of them.

I'm like, this is what the general people right now in like it was 2023 are still feeling this way. Right.

Rachel: Yeah. So

Beth: I feel like adoptees voices [00:58:00] have just gotten a little stronger over the last decade.

Rachel: Yeah.

Beth: And it even reached me in 2017 in my forties. Right. Um, I'm glad it's reaching people younger. And like, Right.

isn't it? Dr. Mom, can I do anything is when I read that book, though, I got it from that support group next, but I can tell you, I didn't cry, but I could hardly breathe the whole time I read it. And like, there was like heavy rock on my chest because I could identify with everything it was saying and it was hard.

And even just talking about it is kind of hard. It's just, I don't know, it's mind blowing for an adoptee, the pre verbal trauma that exists. And I was like, holy crap, I didn't know I had that, but it makes so much sense. Right, right. How my life has been and like, when people say I have PTSD and all these crazy decisions I've made in like, my younger years.

And like also getting toward addiction, like there are a [00:59:00] lot of adoptees who are, um, in addiction, like, like, um, alcoholics, drug users, like there's a lot,

Rachel: a

Beth: lot of them are open to dealing with adoptee issues. They don't even know that it is an issue. Right. Yes. Because they've been doing it their whole life, it's not an issue.

Rachel: Right.

Beth: I don't know. I think just like educating yourself, reading articles, you don't even have to necessarily read books, but like in the podcast, oh my God, podcast, Adoptees On, the best adoptee voice podcast out there. Oh, I can't wait to check it out. I love it. It saved me like that six months, like I said, when I was going through that

Rachel: Yeah.

Beth: That was the only thing that got me through and like, to this day, sometimes if I'm feeling that I just listen to that, those episodes, you know, cause I still have anxiety sometimes.

Rachel: Sure.

Beth: It's really good to just hear and identify with your fellow voices. And as an adaptive [01:00:00] parent, you can listen just to hear the adaptive voices.

You might not like a lot of things they say, but just being open to hearing it. Right.

Rachel: Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. And you've shared a lot of really great resources. And I will link to those in the show notes.

Beth: There's one more because there's a lecture. There's a lecture by Paul Funderland.

Okay. And I just re listened to it. It's about 53 minutes long on YouTube and it's about adoption and addiction. And it's really fascinating. study. So I'll give you that link as well.

Rachel: Oh yeah, that would be great. Absolutely. Um, Beth, it's so great to talk to you. Thank you so much for just being so open and being willing to come on and, and share your most personal history and, um, everything with, with, with me and with any listeners out there who really, really might benefit from hearing this.

I'm so very grateful to you for coming on. [01:01:00] Thank you.

Beth: Well, thanks for having me and helping me talk about these things. Like, I'm kind of a hot mess right now.

Rachel: I was going to say, can we, let's do a little debrief. Are, how are you feeling now? Are you feeling like it, did it kick up a lot of stuff that now you're like, Oh my God, I'm going to have to like, And is there anything that you want to say or to share?

Beth: Is there something else that is there for you? Because I'm not in a rush. So like, I'm just going to work out. Probably later. I

do breathwork. If I can't cry, if I feel like crying and I can't cry, breathwork really helps me get there. Like I said, I have tools now. I've been in recovery. I mean, I'm still an onion.

I still have things to like work on.

Rachel: Sure.

Beth: But like, yeah, I just, I'm so grateful for the tools I have today. an adult that I can actually help other people. One last thing I wanted to say for anyone who's like thinking about adopting through, um, the foster care system is that, um, yeah, going through an FFA, [01:02:00] I highly recommend, um, because you've said also on your podcast that like, there's no advocates for the resource families.

Right. And they really set you up for success. Right. And like, if you go straight through the county, is kind of where you don't get all that information and you might not get set up, you know, your expectations. And LA County has the highest need for foster families. They say in the world, like, wow, but like they, they need it and they'll take anyone.

And they, so we did, The person, the matchmaker, as you call them, you know, they're like, they, it's in such high demand that they're, they'll ask you, what do you want, a boy or a girl? And what, what race or hair? I'm like, I'm like, I'm not, I'm not making a baby here. Like for me, I was like, I'm leaving it up to fate and whoever gives us, gives us the first phone call.

Like, and as soon as we got certified within five days, we got a phone call. [01:03:00] And like, we just said yes, so we just said we both agreed, like, whenever the phone rings and whoever it is, we just say yes.

Rachel: Aww.

Beth: We did. So, I don't know, like, if you're really thinking about it, go to the FFA and go to the classes.

Like, they'll definitely help you decide. But otherwise, I feel fine. Like, thanks for caring, though.

Rachel: Oh, yeah. No, I just know. It's like, you know, bring stuff up. And I don't want to just like, I used to feel that way in therapy. And I'd be like, really, you're going to send me out into the world after all that?

Like, I feel like I'm like, I feel like internally, I was in like a terrible car accident or something. Nobody can see it on the outside. But I walk out of the office and I'm just like, Oh, my God, it's such a mess. So my adult

Beth: life, I swear, it's fine.

It's my humor helps so much and totally, totally. All right.

Rachel: So we're going to sign off for right now. Thank you for sharing your story. Stick around for a minute. Cause I just want to talk to you, um, separately, but thank you. And, uh, [01:04:00] I'll catch you next time.

Rachel: This has been the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of nontraditional families born through Foster to Adopt.

Produced by Aquarius Rising. Edited by Jason Sarubbi at Split Rock Studios. Original music composed by Joe Fulginiti. For more information or to stay in touch, visit FromFoster2Forever. [01:05:00] com. That's From Foster, the number two foster home. Forever. com and stay connected with us on Instagram at foster to forever podcast.

That's foster the number two forever podcast. We'll see you next time.