Educational Rights & Trauma Informed Parenting with Sharon Dunlevy

As long as there are kids in foster care, they need advocates. And so regardless of what the federal government is doing, I am going to keep working on bringing these needs to people's attention.

It's the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through foster to adopt. I'm your host, Rachel Fulgenetti.

I am so happy to have Sharon Dunleavy here on the show today. Sharon is a foster care educational advocate and trainer and she has a lot to share with us, so I want to jump right in. Sharon, welcome.

Firstly, thank you Rachel. It's great to be here and I.

Want to ask you, I always like to ask people how they got into this. What was the attraction to foster care?

So I kind of came here as a roundabout way. When I was in college I studied to be a special education teacher and then I got called into ministry.So I actually was a children's Minister for over 20 years and was serving there but wanted to serve more vulnerable kids. So I decided to leave the ministry and go back out to the secular world.I jumped around from a couple of different types of jobs and then saw a job posting for a foster care licensing agency looking for an educational advocate and space. Basically they needed somebody who had special needs background which I had.So I applied and got the position and I did that for three years under a grant and then the grant ran out and Covid hit kind of at the same time and so I went out on my own and, and created my own business, foster care training today.And I specifically train foster parents on how to be educational advocates for the children in their care because very few places have educational advocates on staff like mine was.

It's true.And you know, it's funny because when I fostered to adopted both of my children and one of the first rights that you get as a foster parent is the educational rights that, that has to happen really quickly. And in both of my cases my kids were infants so it didn't really matter that much at that point.But I remember thinking, I don't even know what this means. Like what does this mean and why do I need to know this? And now honestly, just researching you and being on your website and she.By the way guys, it's sharondunlevy.com is that correct?

Mm.

Really, really great information. I love your blog and I wanna talk about some of the things on the blog.

Thank you.

She's got a lot of resources there.One thing that she does have is a free download of an educational outcomes manual which I actually happen to Download and I wanna share some of the statistics that are very, very eye opening. Then we'll, we'll talk. So it starts, it starts out saying, did you know 20,000 youth age out of foster care annually?By the age of 21, 25% will not have graduated from high school. 25%. 20 to 25% will experience homelessness, 20% will be incarcerated, 23% will be parents.By the age of 21, only 3 to 12% will earn a college degree, and 20% plus will have persistent mental health issues. It also says that 80% of children in foster care have significant mental health issues. This is obviously a really important topic.Has it always been this way? Is it getting worse? Is it getting better? And what can be done about this?

So the statistics have not changed a whole lot since the. Since like 2000.The number of kids entering foster care has reduced some, but the statistics in terms of the percentage who are not doing well after aging out has not changed. It really stays in that kind of Those. Quarter to 1/5 to 1/4 of the students just really having bad outcomes in terms of.And then at one point there was a statistic that like 80% stay on government assistance.And I think some of that might be including Medicaid, but it also includes those who end up being homeless, those who are underemployed, all of those. So, yeah, the statistics just really haven't changed all that much.And a lot of that, I think, is due to the fact that we don't talk about foster kids. We know foster kids exist, we know that they're out there, but we don't really know what that means.I have people who still think we run orphanages here in America, and we haven't run orphanages since, like the 80s. You know, that's gone out the window. We do have group homes, but those are usually more severe mental health issues, not just a random orphanage.We really do try and use that family model. But when we talk about foster kids, we tend to go to what we see in the media.Like, I, I watch crime TV shows, like crime dramas, and they'll use the, the, the idea that, well, they were a foster kid as a rationale for why they committed the crime. And I think there's this perception still that foster kids are, quote, unquote, bad. Well, they're not bad. They are misunderstood. They're not looked.You know, people don't try and get to know them. They come with these. And it's. And unfortunately, what happens is we, we tend to blame the victim, right so these kids are victims.They're victim of a system, they're victims of their parents, they're victims of something. And then we, but we perceive them as having their, their behaviors and everything that's coming from trauma as making them bad kids.And really they are traumatized victims. And we need to be more trauma informed in order for them not to have these outcomes. But we're not. We're not trauma informed. Right, right.And so we don't understand how to help them do well at a young age. The one statistic you mentioned was the 20% have mental health issues into adulthood.That's, that's low because they're self identifying themselves as having mental health issues. So how many of them are not even admitting that they still have mental health issues?

So you're maybe don't even know or don't meditating.

Yes, exactly. So yeah, that number could be much, much higher. Way above 50% in my opinion.

Yes.

Just because they are self identifying. So yeah, we just don't even know. Like nobody talks about these numbers, which is why I start my manual with those statistics.

Yeah.

Because it kind of hits you in the face, doesn't it? Like, you know, where are these numbing numbers coming from?

It sure does.

Yeah.

So what. Getting back to my original point about getting those educational rights, what should foster parents do or know when they get those rights?A child joins their home and if they're school age, what, what's the first thing they should do? How do they navigate that?

So there are three laws that really help kids in foster care, and there are three federal laws that apply to any public schools. So public schools and charter schools, because charter schools are public schools. The first one is the Every Student Succeeds Act.So they need to look these laws up. And each state usually has a manual on how that law is interpreted in their state.So if you look up Every Student Succeeds act, I'm in Indiana, so Every Student Succeeds Act, Indiana, I will find my state manual that says, how is this going to relate to kids in foster care in Indiana? And usually there is a guide. What I don't get is why those guides just aren't handed out.

Yeah, I never even heard about this. That's wild. Yeah.

Yeah.And so like I take, I teach educational rights classes for different states and I have a contract with the state of Ohio right now and I'm trying to get some other contracts going and I give them all these manuals and all of them will have been like foster parents for 20 years. Well, of course, every student succeed ACT succeeds. ACT is only since 2016, but there were other acts before then.And they'll be like, how come we never knew about this? And I'm like, right, you know, but we also know the Department of Child Services, it's a low paying job, so there's a lot of turnover.It's hard to keep everybody up to date. I understand that, but we got to do a better job.So I would say make sure, you know, what is your state's policies around that Every Student Succeeds act, because that's the act that allows kids, if they move out of district from the school that they're in, it allows them to stay in that school if it's in their best interest. And the schools have to provide transportation back and forth, even if they're out of district.It also, if they do have to change schools, it allows them to register immediately. Schools can't say, well, we're missing their shot records, we're missing their birth certificate, we're missing this or that.They have to enroll them immediately. So they're not missing school time.I mean, you know, if they're out of the classroom, the likelihood of them falling behind gets higher and the likelihood of them dropping out after they fall behind gets higher. So we've got to stop those times when they're out of the school or out of the classroom.The other act I like to use is the Individuals with Disabilities act, because trauma is a disability. It doesn't have its own category under idea, but you call it other Health Impairments.And so you get that, and you get that Individualized Education Plan or an iep. And that helps the kids not only get accommodations, but it helps protect them from.When kids like their trauma acts up and they have a trauma trigger and all of a sudden they're acting out, it protects them from being suspended or expelled.And so that's really helpful because again, if they get expelled or suspended, the likelihood of them entering the prison system goes up exponentially. That's we know that as a prison pipeline. And so we've got to stop punishing these kids and become more trauma informed.So getting them that individualized education plan really helps them get those protections. Get some accommodations to help them catch up with their peers and graduate on time.And then when they turn 14 and older, there is Family First Prevention Services act, which provides money basically for independent living skills, which our kids need. You know, my bio daughter has me to fall back on, right? They live in my basement. Cause the housing market's here is horrible.But if something should happen we're here for them. But who do the foster kids have to fall back on?

Right.

They don't have that protection. So the Family First Prevention Services act gives them some buffer.It allows them from that age of 14 all the way up to age 26 in some states to still get educational vouchers, vocational training vouchers. They could go to college and get paid or get payments for software and computers and things like that.So it provides a lot of independent living options for them. And so that's another one that they need to know about. And again, I train foster parents all the time, and they're like, we never even heard this.And according to the Annie Casey foundation, right now those funds from Family first are so underutilized. There's funding for tutors from 14 on, and only 40% of those funds are used in a year.The funding for the educational vouchers, whether it's college or vocational training, is only used at about 20%. So there's money sitting on the table, but we don't know about it, so we're not accessing it.

Where is the disconnect? Why is it so underutilized?

I think there's several places. So there's a disconnect at the state level. So again, Indiana, we have a collaborative cares program that they use those Family first funds.And a student who ages out can stay in foster care, basically in this collaborative care program till the age of 23. In fact, I had a student do this. He graduated, he went home for a little bit, realized he did not want to live with his dad.His dad was still drinking, doing drugs, didn't want to be there. So he contacted his case manager and said, you know, I want to be part of the collaboratives care program.They got him an apartment, they helped him, and they just. They help with rent for a certain amount of time.And then when they stopped helping him, they helped him find a roommate, they helped him get his driver's license. He decided he didn't want a car, but they did help him get a motorbike. And he was working at a fam.I think he was working at a furniture shop at that time. But then he got a manager's job at a Domino's. And so he stayed in this collaborative care program until he was 23.And all throughout that, they helped him with these different milestones. And he met with his case manager.The case manager also made sure that, you know, if he needed any medications or therapy or stuff like that, that they were working on that as well. So he turned 23 a year ago, April, got his own apartment. He was all excited.The Domino's wanted him to be a general manager and they were training him, but he decided he didn't like working that close to corporate, which I completely understand.

Me too.

Right. So. So he's still the manager though. I mean, you know, he's doing really well because he was able to access those funds.And we have in Indiana specific case managers that work on that. Other states don't always have that. They all do things a little differently.

Okay.

Yeah. And so, you know, I, as an educational advocate, I am really unique. Indiana does have educational advocates on staff, but other states, again, don't.And so a lot of the states, they're just learning.So this poster that's behind me is actually a report I wrote and I actually sent it out to all of the Department of Child Services in every state as well as the Departments of Education in every state. Because I think there's a disconnect there. Right.They know these laws exist, but they don't always communicate with each other on how they're going to work together to put these laws into place. Right. And so, you know, there's that disconnect.Then you've got, like I said, we've got the caseworkers who, a lot of them, because it is such a low paying job, they're coming right out of college, this is their first job, they're doing this for a little bit and then they're going to go on to bigger and better things. So the turnover is so fast that it's almost impossible to keep them up to date.And so then we also have the issue of are they being taught any of this at the higher ed level? That's another disconnect. When they do their social work training programs, is educational advocacy part of their training? Probably not.So that's another disconnect. And then you have the training programs that the states offer. So for example, I work for the state of Ohio and I train them in educational rights.Part of their foster parent training is when once a foster parent is licensed in two years, they must take certain classes and one of them has to be educational advocacy. That's part of their state legislation, but that's not true in every state.So, and I've even talked to, I talked to one curriculum developer because I was learning, I was training under them to teach other topics. And I said, why don't you have one on educational advocacy? And their answer to me was, well, we had to prioritize.Well, teacher, here I'M like, education is like a huge priority.

Right. I would think that would be one of the biggest.

Right. But they did not see that. And so, yeah, so there is, there's a lot of disconnect. Right.And it's at both the ground level and at the higher end or the higher level higher education, the state departments, the federal government, it's just, there is, it's so many layers. So when I, when I teach my classes and the parents are like, well, how can we get schools more trauma informed?Well, you got to talk to the higher ed programs and make sure they're teaching them trauma informed practices in their education trainings. You know, you've got to talk to the school district. Are they offering this as professional development?It's just we've got to have more boots on the ground talking about this need. And that's why I wrote this report and sent it out. And I've had several states come to me and say, oh, we want a meeting, we want to talk to you.We know our kids are not doing well right now. Most of the states are from the child welfare side.But I actually have a meeting with the state of the Department of Education at the state of Michigan tomorrow. They're the first department of education that came up and said, oh, wow, we need to talk about what we can do better on our part for foster kids.

It's hard to believe that you're like a, a one person show trying to like, I mean, are there other people doing this as well? And that you could create a unified front or something and, and put it out there in a. Because it's just you're one person.

I am, I'm one person. And up until this week I'd been working part time for somebody else and then doing my business on the side.And because I sent out this report, I sent this report out in January and I've been getting so much attention to it. This is my last week working in this part time job. I'm going full time on my advocacy work.But I do connect a lot with people on LinkedIn and there are a lot of us that are advocating for foster kids. They're not a lot of educational advocates. So that's why I do what I do.I mean, I'm sending out these reports, I'm on LinkedIn trying to bring awareness. I'm posting on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn about all these educational needs and having meetings with people that want to talk about it.Yeah, but it is, it's a lot. So my hope is now like, doing all these podcasts, getting my word out that there will be others who start joining me.I think there will be some movement as we kind of see what's going on. You know, there's a lot that's going up, and we don't know what's going to happen with our department of Education at the federal level.We don't know. You know, there's a lot of fear out here right now about what does this all mean for our kids.

Right.

But as long as there are kids in foster care, they need advocates.And so regardless of what the federal government is doing, I am going to keep working on bringing these needs to people's attention, you know, until we're told that there's absolutely no money or something like that. But I don't think that'll ever happen. I think that unfortunately, there will always be kids in foster care.

Yeah, no, I agree. Unfortunately. Do you self fund this or are you being like, how are you doing this, like, financially?Not to get into your business, but it's like, yeah, that's a lot. Just sending out the report is, like, expensive to all these places.

Well, and I emailed it because I couldn't afford to mail it. Right.But so, yeah, so like, the contract trainings that I do for, like, the state of Ohio and when I can get some more contract trainings, that's really how I fund myself. I, I, you know, I'd be happy to be a paid speaker somewhere, but, you know, like. Right. I mean, I'm not opposed to that. I do offer free classes.I have a group of foster parents that are kind of on my mailing list that have kind of stuck with me for years as I've been building this business. And once a month, I offer them a free class because they always need training credits. That's right.So I get like a hundred people on my free class a month. So I'll continue to offer it. They love it, they can, it helps them. And.But then my, also my goal is that they'll go back to their training directors and say, hey, you know, this person teaches these free classes for us, but we really like her classes, and if you were to pay her, we could attend. Right. Like, that's what, like, I love that. Right. Yeah.

So the classes that I happen to see that you are doing something on developmental disabilities, which I think is really great, and I would love to just ask you about that for a minute and then we'll go back to education. Let's just define, like, what is a developmental disability? And why is this pertinent to foster care?

So developmental disabilities are typically disabilities that are causing a child to be not where they should be in terms of age appropriate development. So something like an intellectual disability, ADHD and autism fall into that category as well.Anything that is causing a student to be behind their age appropriate level is what would be called a developmental disability. And the reason this applies to foster care is because trauma physically affects the brain.Like, it's not just that it affects them emotionally and socially. It physically shrinks the brain.So I have a graphic that I'll show when I teach the class where it shows a brain of a three year old is like maybe this big. And the brain of a three year old who has suffered trauma is only this big. And it's literally, you can see how their brain has not grown.Now the nice thing is human brains are designed to grow. So if we can catch them early enough and give them different experiences, we actually can grow their brains.But it takes deliberate work in order to make those shifts. And the other reason this applies is because a lot of trauma behaviors, they're mistaken as a developmental disability.So trauma can mimic autism if a child is always stuck in that kind of flight mode. Trauma can mimic ADHD if the child is stuck in the fight mode. They're always on the move. They're. They're trying to.Basically they're moving around because they don't want anybody to catch them. That's a trauma response, not an ADHD response.And what happens is when we go into the schools and the schools will look at this kid who's got a trauma background, they'll be like, well, why aren't they on medication for adhd? ADHD meds don't work for a trauma kid. So it's really important to know what's the difference?Like, what's a true developmental disability and what is caused by trauma. And right now, under the Individuals with Disabilities act, trauma is not its own category. It needs to be, but it's not.And so that that causes some issues. So. But also I teach this class because trauma has characteristics like a developmental disability for kids in school.They should be getting an individualized education plan for trauma.

Right.

So I also want them to understand that process as well. So.

Right. How do you know if it's a. Develop a true developmental disability or if it's a.Or I guess they're all developmental disabilities, but how do you know which one?

Yeah, yeah, which one. That, honestly, there are some guidelines that you can look at.The CDC especially has a Lot of, especially at the early ages of like your, your baby at 3 months should be doing this. And if they're not, what are the signs of concern? So if you go to the cdc, they'll have those milestone checklists. Yeah.But if you ever have just any questions, go to your pediatrician or if you're into foster care system and you have a therapist that is working. You know, I, I am a big fan of foster parents keeping journals on their kids, making notes.Anytime you notice a trigger, anytime you notice something that doesn't quite seem right, write it down.Because if you're like me, you'll forget and you get to that next appointment and you're like, I was going to ask you something and I cannot remember what it was. We all done that. And so write it down. But yeah, you need to be in constant communication.And if your kid is school aged, get your teacher on board, you know, have to tell the teacher what's going on. What do you think? What are you seeing? What do they think? What are they seeing? You know, being a foster parent is being part of a team. Right.And it's a big team.You know, you've got your case manager, you've got your therapist, you got your school personnel, you've got all these people and the bio parents, if reunification is the goal, whatever. So there's all these people in this team and the team needs to be talking non stop about the kid because the kid is the middle of that team.And so yeah, the actual diagnosis is going to have to come from a medical doctor or a therapist, through a medical personnel on their staff.

Sure.

But they need to know what you're seeing. They need to know what the, what triggers you see. They need to know what symptoms you see.They need to know what behaviors didn't seem to be right from your perspective. And that's how you get go around figuring out what's going on. And sometimes it's trial and error.If it's ADHD instead of trauma, you know, you, there are certain signs and I'm not, I'm not that expert but you know, there are certain ways that I know they can say, oh, this is a typical ADHD response, not a trauma response.

Got it? Yeah. How do you know if the school is a trauma informed school? Like, is that something you can ask, are you trauma informed?Or like, how do you navigate that?

Yes, you can, you can ask and I'll tell you. Most of the schools will say, yes, we are. Instead of going and asking it that way.What I encourage is I encourage, as soon as a kid's in your home and you're they're going to school, you make that early appointment. Set up an appointment with maybe the teacher first.Or if, you know, the kids had problems in a school before, you might want to set it up with the principal first. But really. And then approach it as, hey, I've got so and so. They're in my home, they're a foster kid. This is how they call me.I mean, because certain things, like some foster kids don't want anybody to know they're a foster kid. Right, right. So what are they going to call you and what should the teacher say about how they talk about you? You know, things like that.Say, I know these are triggers. X, Y, Z. This is the background that I know there are gaps that we don't know. And we don't know were they exposed to drugs early on or we don't know.Like, you know, we think they might have fetal alcohol syndrome because of these symptoms, but we've never had that diagnosed. We'd appreciate your help. So I would approach it as a meeting about collaborating for the best of the child.And I always say to my parents that I teach, never try and talk to a teacher at drop off or pick up time, be respectful and make an appointment because they're, they're so busy.

Right.

So. But set up those meetings early so that you're building a good relationship from the start.Because a lot of times, you know, they hear foster kid and they're like, oh my gosh, now we're going to have all these people talking to us and telling us how badly we're treating their kids. And, you know, but like, I had a little kindergartner who got into trouble. He just, he had a. He was the sweetest little boy.But every, every so often something would set him off and the teacher just did not quite know how to deal with him. And I'm not really sure why this happened, but they put him in a classroom by himself. A kindergartner.

Completely by himself.

By himself. And when somebody finally came back into the room, he had destroyed it. Yeah, like, tore the phone off the wall.All the posters were ripped and a school was like, I can't believe he did this and you guys are going to have to pay for the ph. And we're like, but you put him in that room by yourself.Well, once he calmed down and we talked to him, we learned that the last time he had been put in a room like that was with his sister when he was in preschool, and that was when the caseworkers came and took him to two different homes and they never saw each other again. So he probably thought somebody was going to come and take him away from his foster mom.

Yeah, yeah.

So you've got to be upfront.And I mean, we couldn't necessarily predict that that was going to happen, but we could have had that conversation a little early on about, you know, rather than taking him out of the classroom, let's try these types of interventions, you know, because the teacher really just didn't know what to do with him.

Right, right. That is a question I have too, is that you can't assume that the staff even know the, the child's background at all.They may not even have any awareness of what's going on.

Right.

Behind the scenes if they're a foster kid. If they're not. And. And there is that issue of privacy, especially as the kid gets older.

Yes.

Is that something that you would need to, like, get permission from the kid at a certain age or what? What are your feelings about that?

I would.And in fact, what I would do and what we did do is as the kids got older, we would include them in those first meetings so that they were there saying, you know, these are things that I like. These are things I don't like. Yes, I get angry when this happens. I know that these type of things work for me. I, you know, that type of thing.I would include them because, you know, as a foster parent, our foster kids don't have a lot of time when they have power. They were removed from their homes against their will. They never got to choose which home they were placed in. All of these things were done to them.And so anytime we can include our kids in a decision making, the more powerful they're going to feel and the more in control they're going to feel. And we know that control makes them feel safe and we want our kids to feel safe. And so, yeah, I would include them in those conversations.At least offer. I mean, they may say, no, I don't want to be in that conversation, but at least offer, I'm going to meet with your teachers. Do you want to attend?If not, you know how. What do you want me to tell them about you? And what do you, you know, things like how you call me. Those types of things.What do you want them to know? What do you don't want them to know?Because some of them, yeah, they don't want to be seen as a foster kid because even though we know better, they are looked at as bad. And there's no, they're not bad. They weren't there wasn't their fault. They were removed. It was something else. They're the victim.But sometimes we blame the victim, right?

Or it might be a case of the kids are judging the their outsides, like, oh, he comes to school dirty or he's wearing the same clothes every day or something. You know, kids can be really judgmental.

But teachers can be judgmental too. And we don't always know it. I mean, everybody is judgmental. Let's just be real. We all have biases, right?And we don't always recognize that we're having that bias. And then we look back and we go, oh, why did I respond to that person that way?You know, I always like to tell the story of we were at a Chinese buffet one time and our daughter was three or four, something like that little. And there was this guy at the other table and he was by himself and he had a tank top on and tattoos all the way across and down his arm.And he kept kind of looking over at us. And I was getting me making me very nervous, you know, and I'm like, not leaving my kid. I'm not, you know, what's going on?Well, after he finished eating, he came over and he's like, oh, you just have the sweetest daughter. She is just so good and was just gushing. And I'm like, oh my gosh, why did I have that reaction? Right, Right. We all have biases.And so yeah, we just, we make a. Judgments based on words, based on what we see.And so yeah, sometimes the teachers don't even that they have those biases or maybe they had a foster kid in the past and that kid was horrible. And they bring that forward because they assume, you know, not being mean is just, that's how we are wired.We, we, we tend to base everything based on a past experience.

So I wanted to actually talk about. I mentioned your blog before. One of your posts was about discipline versus punishment.

Yes.

And I thought that was such a great topic and the way that you laid it out, which I, I encourage the listeners to go to her blog and just read it. Can you talk about that a little bit?Because there's, there's going to be behavior things and, and in fact, one of the things that, that you say in the article is something that my cousin who's a special ed teacher told me right away. When my daughter was diagnosed with ADHD and she autism, she was having a lot of problems at School. And she said behavior is communication.

Yep. So yes, behavior is communication. Instead of looking at the child as being good or bad, their behavior can be good or bad.Appropriate, not appropriate, but what doesn't reflect on the kid. The kid is the kid. Right. And sometimes we misbehave. We do this as adults too.So when we look at what their behavior is, we need to ask ourselves, what are they trying to tell us? Why are they behaving this way? And it usually was. For a kid with trauma, it's going to be a trauma response. We all live.Anybody with trauma has that real trigger of that fight, flight or freeze. And we all can relate to that in some ways. Some of us, if we are up against the wall, we're going to come out fighting. I am a definite fight person.Some people, if they feel up against the wall, they're going to hide their heads, they're going to run away, they're going to look for the out. And those are the kids that tend to get ignored because they're like, oh, they're just so quiet. They're so well behaved.Well, that's probably not right.

Right.

Sometimes a kid is too quiet and yeah, you know, wait, maybe they shouldn't be this quiet. And then the freeze. I actually was in a car with somebody.We're going over the railroad tracks and a train started coming and he literally froze on the railroad tracks. That is that freeze response. Like literally, he could not press the gas pedal. I'm like, go, go, go, go. And he's just frozen.So that's the freeze response. When we realize that a lot of the kids are reacting out of that type of response then, and that they're communicating something.And usually it is a sense of not feeling safe. That's usually the first thing is I don't feel safe. Kids with attachment issues, they're going to communicate that. I don't feel like I trust you.I don't feel that you're. I'm bonded to you. I don't feel I'm accepted by you. You know, those are the types of things.And then as they get older and we're starting to deal more with the self esteem, I don't feel I have the tools to do this. I don't feel that I am. I'm able to do anything. I had a boy that I worked with for years and he was just constantly, I'm so dumb. I'm so stupid.I can't do anything. And it showed. He didn't do his schoolwork because why should he? He didn't think he could learn anyways.

Right.

And unfortunately, he had been told that. So always looking at that, those behaviors as what are they trying to say?And then, because trauma, like I told you about the little boy that got locked in the room, punishment tends to trigger trauma. Timeouts. That's an isolation.Isolation may have been a time when the kid was brutalized, they were put into a room by themselves, or they were put into a room with one person, an adult who molested them. You know, we've got to think about these things. A lot of foster kids have fears of bathrooms, and that's not unusual.Or they don't like to sleep with the light out. You know, there are all these issues that come up from their past experiences. Again, what are they communicating?And so we've got to work through that.So, like, if a kid's got a fear of the bathroom, brush their teeth in the kitchen sink until they start to feel more comfortable, then you can transition them to the bathroom. But punishment tends to punish the kid for the behavior rather than just the behavior. Discipline is teaching. The word itself is all about teaching.So if we look at discipline, we are front loading. We're being proactive. We're trying to help them learn from their behaviors and do better the next time.So obviously, you never confront a kid when they're triggered. They're having a meltdown. You let them have the meltdown when they're calm, then you can approach it and say, hey, what happened?And if they're too young, they may not be able to tell you everything, but just still, you know, why do you think you responded that way? What, what happened? What was what? What trigger you know, was there? And then what could you have done differently? What could have I done differently?What, you know, what might have made a difference?So then you're having conversations around their triggers, and you're having them work with you to create solutions of what they can do the next time.So maybe the next time they stop and take five deep breaths, maybe the next time they walk away, if there's somebody that's constantly at them, you know, how some kids, you know, they're bullied and so they come out flying with their fists because they're bullied. Well, how do we not respond with our fists?Maybe we need to learn to walk away, you know, take those breaths and walk away, you know, but you have to have them calm to talk those through. And then what you do is you make sure you praise them when they show that they're following those plans.So A kid, the next time your kid gets triggered and they take deep breaths, even if they still have a meltdown, praise them for the fact that I saw you trying to get yourself under control, I saw you take those breaths next time. What do we need to do to get you really there so you don't have that meltdown again?And so just I always say focus on the positives more than the negatives. And focusing on the positives is what discipline's about.You're encouraging them and what they do right and not necessarily focusing on what they do wrong. Whereas punishment tends to focus on what they did wrong. So for every one correction you give, you give three praises is what I say.And then that helps them build their self esteem. It gives them self confidence. I can do this. I can get my temper under control, I can stand up to a bully instead of running away.I can speak for myself, those types of things. And then discipline does include corrective actions. So if a child breaks something, they need to make a corrective action.But it doesn't need to be this big. Yelling and screaming. It is okay, we broke this pot. Let's say they're 10 years old. You need to replace this.What kind of chores can you do to make up for the cost of this? Whatever they broke, you know, so discipline doesn't mean that you're not correcting them. It just means we're doing it in a positive way.It builds problem solving muscles, it builds all of those types of things and gives them a little bit sense of control as well as building their confidence.

Great advice. What about rules in the house and setting rules? What is your advice there on that?

I always say to set very few rules, they need to be reasonable. Reasonable means that it applies to everyone. So if they have a bedtime, all the kids have a bedtime.Now the bedtime doesn't have to be the same, but everybody has a bedtime. The adults also should have a bedtime. Right? Like we should. The rules should apply to everyone.If there's no phones at the table, that includes the adults. Because the kids are going to do what you do.Like I remember our kid left their shoes all over the house and my husband was like, well, why are your shoes in the middle of the living room? And she was like, because your shoes are in the middle of the living room. And they were. His shoes were right there. Right.Reasonable also means that they know how to do what they're supposed to do. So sometimes we make assumptions. We make an assumption. When a kid comes to our home that they know how to load a dishwasher.They may have never seen a dishwasher. If you want it loaded in a specific way, you have to teach them how to do that. So you can't just assume that they know how to do things.Make sure that those are within their ability to do and they have to be within their control. So yes, kids can have a bedtime, but you cannot reasonably tell a kid you must be asleep by 9pm because we can't control when we fall asleep.We can control, we can be in bed by 9pm but we can't punish them because they didn't fall asleep as soon as their head hit the pillow.

Right?

My head, I don't do it. I mean, I never have been able to do that. So make sure that those rules are in their control. And those are kind of.And I, like I said just a few really, especially when they first get to your home, a few rules, just certain things that are really about their safety. Again, as soon as a kid gets in your home, the first thing you want them to do is feel safe.So everything should be around building that sense of feeling safe, including the rules.

Right?

And then as they get older, you have them help you create rules that apply. When our chores going to be done, when you know what's the, if you don't complete a chore this week, what is your, what is the consequence of that?Those types of things. But keep including them in that process.

Because I was going to ask what happens when the child just doesn't comply? Like will not comply. They won't do it. What do you do in that situation?

So it, a lot of it, you know, it's, it is conversation. But with foster kids and with trauma, we have to remember that some kids do have conduct disorder and oppositional disorder.If it is like really everything you tell them, they will not comply. That's when you call in help.And, and I want to say this again because foster parents, I sometimes think that they're out there by themselves and you're not. You don't have to do it all. I mean, if you, if all you can do with the kid in your home is make them feel safe, that's all you can do.Because their trauma response is so high that all you can do is make them feel safe. And I think sometimes as foster parents we take on too much. We're caregivers, right?We want to make them feel loved and all of this and sometimes we can't. But when you have a kid who is really, really oppositional and you just. Everything you've tried, nothing works. Ask for help. Get your case manager.If they're not already in therapy, get them into therapy. If they are in therapy, meet with that therapist. Talk to the teachers. What is.Has anything worked in school or are they having the same responses in school?Sometimes kids will act out more with foster parents than they do at school because they actually feel safe and they know that the foster parent isn't going to abuse them, like in the past or something. And so sometimes they'll seem like they're. Why are they always pushing my buttons? And it's because you're a safe person.But if they're acting out in school and with you, then it's time to ask for help. And it's really important to know that sometimes you just have to ask for help.I'm a big fan of family therapy because there may be something that's going on in you that you don't even realize and the kids picking up on, and that's why they're not responding. So sometimes it is a little bit of having to look internally to see, am I doing something that's making them feel like there's a barrier there.

Family therapy, meaning that everyone is there. Everyone in the family or who's living in that house would be together?

Yes. Doing that. Yeah. It's as much about learning to be a parent as it is about. And being a parent to a kid. Which trauma.

Yeah.

Because that is a whole different ball game than just being a parent.

And I do want to mention also because a lot of people, they. They'll be fostering infants, and they think there's no drama because I got them at three days old. Not the case. Can you speak to that?

Yes. Unfortunately, we have learned that our infants retain more than we think they do.And so even those early attachment things, if they were neglected or abused, even if it stops within three days, it could come up again. The other thing that can happen with infants or young children who are fostered or adopted young is they may have no trauma behaviors.And then hit the age between 8 and 10 where they start realizing they're different than their peers. Maybe their family makeup is different, maybe something. And they realize, oh, I not like my peers.And all of a sudden these trauma behaviors will start coming out. Yeah, It's. It's not unheard of. And unfortunately, we. The same thing happens with kids who are adopted.A lot of times when a kid's adopted, everybody just assumes, oh, they're adopted, so now they're not going to have any trauma behaviors. And in fact, we cut off a lot of their medical access once they're adopted, which is really an issue because they still need therapy.They still need all these. But now these adoptive parents are expected to just do it themselves unless they've worked out a really good subsidy.And so, you know, they shouldn't be removing access to therapy and all of that for adopted kids.

Right.

Because they do have trauma still.

Is that a state by state case also?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it has to do some courts, you know, you can negotiate subsidies and things like that.I know Indiana just changed the way that the subsidy negotiations work so that actually you don't have to negotiate anymore. Basically, it's just based on whatever the can score is at the time of adoption.

Okay. Can score being just for the listeners.

Yes. Oh, the can score is like, how. What level of trauma are they at? Yes. So a one or a two has very low. Three and four have much more trauma.Five plus are usually kids who are in, like, group homes and stuff because their trauma is so extensive, expensive that they were not able to be fostered outside of a residential center.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

We're getting to the end of our time together. It's been so wonderful having you on.

Oh, I appreciate it. And I love that you read my blogs.

Oh, yeah, your blogs are great.

Oh, my God, to hear that, that makes me happy.

What advice do you have to parents who are either becoming foster parents, want to become foster parents, or maybe are in the process right now.

Take all the classes you can.I mean, I know you have to anyways for training credits, but honestly, really look at it as you'll always just need to learn because every kid is different.So, you know, you want to learn as much as you can about what trauma can look like, what is resilience, what is educational advocacy, all of those things. So really keep up with your learning and know that there's only so much you can do.So you do your best, you offer what you can to the kids, and all it is is planting seeds. I tell this to teachers all the time too. Right. We never know if what we planted way back when is going to crop up sometime later in somebody's life.And I know for myself, I've had seeds planted within my youth that I think back and I go, wow, you know, that teacher said that to me and now I'm doing this. Or my parents said that to me and now I'm doing this, you know, so just do the best you can.Plant those seeds and know that your love may not be enough, unfortunately. We would love to just say that we take them in our homes and we love them and they'll be cured. And it's just so much more than that.So that's where that lifelong learning comes in.Just be open to constantly learning, taking in new information, seeking out help when you need it, but always focused on doing the best for the kids in your home.

Is there anything that we can do for you to spread your message as far and wide as we can? What can we do?

I would love to connect with people on LinkedIn. That's where I am most of the time, is LinkedIn.And you just can look at Sharon Dunleavy and you'll find me there in LinkedIn and that's really where I go. But I'd love to connect there.And if you connect with me there, there are options where you can schedule a call with me or any of those things so that we can work together to help kind of make foster kids have a better future.

Thank you for coming on and talking with us this afternoon.

Yes, I'm glad to do that. Thank you.

This has been the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to Adopt. Produced by Aquarius Rising, edited by Jason Sarubi at Split Rock Studios.Original music composed by Joe Fulginetti.For more information or to stay in touch, visit from foster2forever.com that's from foster the number2forever.com and stay connected with us on Instagram at Foster2forever podcast. That's Foster the number two forever podcast. We'll see you next time.