Family Dynamics: Therapist Jeanette Yoffe on the unique needs of adopted children

I like to say we have puzzle pieces, imaginary, just floating above our heads and we're just trying to put the pieces together and we can't. We can't do it all by ourselves. Need our parents. We really, truly do. We need you to help us make sense of all of these questions.

It's the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to Adopt. I'm your host, Rachel Olginetti. I am thrilled to welcome to the show today.

Jeanette Yoff. Jeanette, welcome.

Thank you so much, Rachel, for having me. I'm excited to be here.

I was so thrilled when I came across your Instagram and I kind of went down a rabbit hole.

I went to your website and there was so much interesting stuff on there that I, you know, there was like three different options of things I could click on and I was interested in all of them. So I'm really looking forward to talking about everything. Before we get into everything, can you give me a sense of what you're doing right now?

What is your career? What are you currently doing in the world?

Yeah, there's a lot. I have a lot of slices and a pizza pie. I like to say, balancing.

Well, I'm first and foremost a psychotherapist working in the field of foster care and adoption.

I also started a nonprofit organization called Celia center that was named after my birth mother because I was adopted and raised in the foster care system.

And I found my birth mother and wanted to name a center after her and create a space for the adoption and foster care community to come together and provide support groups, arts festivals, mental health conferences, which we've been doing for now 12 years here in Los Angeles. That's Celia Center. And then Yoff Therapy is my private practice.

I do supervise and train therapists to be adoption and foster care competent here in Los Angeles county and now really across the country because now everything's on zoom. So I've been talking to people all over now.

That's so great.

Yes. So I'm pretty busy with all of that. And then I'm a mother and I've been married 22 years. This year was our 20.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

For you. Yeah. How old are your kids?

I have one 18 year old.

Okay. All right. Is your practice only, like, do you only work with the adoption and foster care community?

Predominantly, yes. I also do reunification work. I'm appointed reunification therapist for the Superior Court of Los Angeles. And so I do that.

And that's basically families that have estranged family members or there's a divorce and there's a parent who's no longer in a child's life, and my role is to reunify that child with that estranged parent.

Gotcha. And that, I'm assuming, happens over a series of meetings and, you know, over. Over a long period of time.

It's not like a one and done kind of a situation.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I've worked on cases for seven years.

Wow.

It's a process because.

Yeah.

Especially if a child doesn't know that about the parent. Maybe. Typically, sometimes this happens.

Someone gets married to someone else, and they don't realize that that's not their biological father and that they have a biological father out there. And then that biological father wants to be a part of the child's life.

So you're preparing the child, educating the child about who this person is and how they are your biological father, and really following the child's lead. Always, always, always following the child.

Let's talk a little bit about your history, because I'm pretty sure that this informed what you decided to do for a living. So you were adopted, did you say?

Yes.

Out of the foster care system?

Yes.

In New York State, In New York City. Did you know your birth parents at all?

So I did live with my birth family for the first 15 months of my life.

Okay.

Which is not typical when we think of, you know, children who are adopted, they're usually separated at birth. But I did enter.

I did stay with my birth family for 15 months, and my mother had mental illness and she needed to be hospitalized, and it wasn't safe for me to be in her career, so I entered the foster care system. My birth father, also my parents were married, didn't feel that he could care for a child on his own without their mother, of course.

And so she was also pregnant with my brother, who I didn't learn about until I was 6, that I had a biological brother. He was. When I entered the foster care system, she was seven months pregnant with him. And so I entered the foster care system.

Then he stayed with her for some time, and then again, she started to decline cognitively and she had to be hospitalized again. And then my brother entered the foster care system. So he lived in one family in the Bronx, and I was raised in a family on Long Island.

And there was a lot of red tape at the time. My birth mother is native Argentinian, so she came to United States on a work visa.

Okay.

So she actually was deported back to Argentina because she had two children in the foster care system, and her visa had run out at this point. So they were trying Jewish childcare was the agency I was placed with.

They were trying to place us with an aunt and uncle in Argentina, but that kept falling through. I recently got.

And I was in I was literally sitting in foster care for years, six and a half years, because they were trying to reunify us with family members in Argentina. But at the time, politically, the country was not in a safe place, and there's a lot of politics and scary things happening in Argentina at the time.

So we ended up staying in the United States. And then I was placed into another family at the age of seven, and then I was adopted at seven. And there's three transitions there, Right.

The foster family, then to the foster care, to adoptive family.

Yes.

So my heart is in foster care. Really? My heart is in foster care.

Yeah, that, that makes perfect sense to me. When you were with the first family, the first foster family, they were just sort of an emergency placement.

Were there other children in the home as well? Was it just you? And did you get a chance to ever see your biological sibling during that time? Were there visits?

Yes. So I actually wrote a play. I was an actress before I became a therapist, so I wrote a play, and it's called what's yous Name? Who's yous Daddy?

And I wrote a scene in there from the child's point of view of me meeting my birth, my biological birth brother for the first time when I was six, and how shocking it was and confusing at the same time. So I did not meet or know my brother at all.

They were trying to put us together because they told us we're going to be going on a plane ride to Argentina together. We met each other and we had passports, meaning I never saw him again, so. And I just forgot your question.

Oh, I was just asking if you got to meet him during those six and a half years that you were in the first foster family and develop a relationship with him.

At that time, that was the only time I was six. We had passports made. I was told, this is your brother. We looked identical. And I never saw him again. And that was another loss, another confusion. Ms.

I basically put it, like, in the back of my mind and forgot that I even had a brother. I was trying to function.

Yeah.

And with all that was being told that now you're going on a long plane ride to Argentina, and then you get these passports made. And by the way, my passport, I actually got that passport. And the look on my face, in my eyes, you can see scared.

I was of Course, scared and confused. And that's really an impetus of why I became a therapist.

Because when I started as an adult, acting, writing my play, I started volunteering with children who were adopted. And I remember looking at some of the kids, and this little kid came running up to me and said, are you adopted?

And in that moment, I just felt compelled to really reach this child and help her understand the experience that we're going to be okay. Yes, I'm an adult. I've grown up. And you're going to grow up, too. And yes, being adopted is a special and dynamic, important life transition for you.

And in that moment, I really said, I think I want to work with children and help them understand because that child's point of view, we really need to get on their level to help them understand what is happening in their world.

Yeah.

Especially children in foster care.

There's so much going on and so many spinning plates that they're dealing with, whether they're going to courts and they're having visits with their birth families, and then they don't see them again. That causes another traumatic grief for that child.

That's right.

Compounding all these other things that are happening. So. Yeah. So working with children has been amazing.

What a gift to those children that you have personal experience that you can be, you know, an example to them of someone who has worked through this and gotten to the other side. I guess I don't know what the term is, but yeah, you've worked through it. And.

And in being authentic and real, that, yeah, being adopted has challenges. There's no question. Mental health challenges. And really speaking to that, because I had so many. I had anxiety disorder, depressive disorder.

I then untreated anxiety disorder became panic disorder. So there was so much that I was compounding and trying to get through that.

For me, also becoming a therapist, I really understood the mental health issues so much deeper. And I can help myself. Sure. Understand myself better and know how to treat these different pieces of mental health.

What I like to say is we don't have issues. We have vulnerabilities. Vulnerabilities because of what happened to us. And it's not what's wrong with us.

Yeah.

It's not that we won't behave. We can't behave like other kids because of what happened to us.

Right, right.

We have vulnerabilities when it comes to attachments, building trust.

Yeah.

Experiencing loss, grieving. It brings up all of these emotions that really. And it is a lifelong process.

Yeah.

I'm still dealing with. With pieces of my Story as an adult now still.

Of course. Of course. Did you keep in touch with that first foster family? A.

And second was the second foster family that you went to, the family that adopted you, and are you still in relationship with them?

Yes. So I actually still do see my foster family.

The first one.

The first one.

Wow.

I lived with them for six and a half years, and I've told them, you grew me up. You are family to me. And for me, it was. I loved them. I formed an attachment to them. I was grief stricken when I left them.

I cried and cried and cried. My mother told me for days, and I would beg to see them. And it was possible because they were only a town over.

So I continued to have visits with them, probably through middle school, and then it ended at that point. But I always came back and I would reach out to them and say, hey, can I see you again? Because they mattered so much to me.

And I also needed to know, do I still matter to you? Because I lived with you for many years.

Yeah.

And so to be received back helped me with my grief and loss and helped me see that I am loved. I was loved. I am loved, and I continue to be loved. And so something that I'm doing in my practice now is called open foster care.

Just like open adoption, where we're having reunion with birth family members.

I help children who formed attachments to prior foster families, they can go back and the therapist and the parents all work together to assure and prepare the foster parents to be sure that they want to see the child again. The child may need an apology, you know, whatever the child needs to hear from them.

Right.

I coach foster parents, and then the child has a reunion with that foster family, and that's healing, heals their grief and loss. Because I've had kids enter an adoptive family, and they're still grieving the loss of the foster family.

Yes.

Which is going to impede their ability to attach to the new family.

Yes.

And so it's. It's really beautiful when we can do this for a child.

And then, in essence, they don't have all this grief and loss that they have to keep suppressing and repressing, and it becomes all these other mental health challenges.

Right, right.

And so, in a way, my own experience has informed the work that I do.

Of course. Of course.

I wish. Yeah. That someone had done that for me.

I.

For myself.

Right, right. And I'm sure there was a part of you. I mean, I'm sure you had to work out, why didn't that foster Family adopt me. Like, why didn't they just keep me?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I'm sure that was a.

I felt rejection sensitivity. I felt I had terrible self esteem. It impacted my self esteem. I felt unwanted, unlovable, deficient. Something was wrong with me. I had pervasive shame.

I thought I was the problem. And that's what happens for these kids. They believe it's their fault because kids are egocentric.

Yeah.

And that will stick with them for years. They don't move through it.

And it does impede the development of guilt, which causes other challenges for parents because it becomes this narcissistic wound and the child can't see past themselves.

Right.

And I have interventions for that. The shame. I call it the shame. Helping kids separate themselves from the problem. Whatever someone's pointing out is wrong.

Because kids often, when they have compromised self esteem, they believe they're all wrong. When you point out something wrong and they take it very personally. And it's so hard for kids to live through this.

So the shame, which just helps them separate. The bread on the bottom is your good best friend voice. The pickle, the lettuce, tomato, the turkey in the sandwich is. Put all the emphasis on that.

That's the problem. That's what you're figuring out. And then the bread on top is your good best friend voice.

Now, not only do I teach kids to do this for themselves, Parents talk to your child like this. First point out they're valid as a person. They're good enough. Value them. Point out their strengths and then put emphasis on.

That's the problem that we're going to figure out together. A lot of these kids, we and us. So going back to your other question, because I could go on and on and on.

Right. I know. That's what I mean. There's so much to talk about. There's like, I'm dying to ask you like 8,000 different things at one time.

I love talking about the interventions and I'd love to share a few more.

Sure.

It's helpful for parents.

Yeah.

So I was adopted at the age of seven and a half, two parent household. And we also took in three other children who two of them were adopted. Younger siblings who were adopted and none of us are biological.

And then we fostered another young girl who was actually reunified. I was 12 with her birth mother. And her birth mother had mental illness as well. But she became stable on medication.

And I remember going to the visit and seeing her with her birth mother. I'm thinking, where's mine? Which Then impacted my self esteem at 12, which my self esteem was developing.

But it crushed me because I thought, oh, I really, I'm not wanting, I'm not, my birth mother's not even coming back for me. And that's when I started displaying suicidal ideation. I mean it was just, it's just the mental health piece would not go away.

And that's when I entered therapy at the age of 13. And so my parents really understood that I needed therapy, I needed to follow my skill sets, like what I like doing.

I love dancing, I love gymnastics. Even though they didn't, you know, didn't see it for me, they truly supported me building my self esteem.

So, yeah, I mean, my parents always be my parents.

Right, Right.

They became my third set of parents, I will say. Right. Was parented for the first 15 months. Parented by my foster family.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, I'm still in touch. My adoptive mother did pass away in 2018.

Sorry.

And she was heavily involved in inspiring me actually to become a therapist because, because she went back to school to become a social worker in her 50s. And she told me she felt terrible that she couldn't help my sister Sarah, who was adopted, who had tremendous attachment issues.

She had also abuse in her history before she came to us at the age of five. And I remember just witnessing her mental health challenges as a teenager going, can somebody help her?

Yeah.

And I didn't understand.

But once I learned her story and my mom basically she just felt so helpless that she took it in her own hands and said, I'm going to go in the field, I'm going to figure this out. And she became an attachment focused family therapist, which inspired me to become an attachment focused family therapist.

So my adoptive mom was tremendous.

Oh, wow, that's amazing. Yeah.

And very inspiring.

Did you, and you've stayed in touch or close with your siblings, your adoptive siblings or not so much?

Yes, my siblings have severe mental health issues. And it's always, it's an interesting topic because how did I make it through? We talk about this, you know, why, why are some children resilient?

Right.

Some kids just have more vulnerabilities, more struggles. And, and it's, it's, it's due to the parenting, it's due to the abuse that someone may have endured. And my brother, he was born drug exposed.

His mother was a heroin addict and so he has that vulnerability. He also did drugs and that impacted his brain and he now has schizophrenia. So, you know, they say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Now, did my parents, of course, tell us not to do drugs? Yes. But he had a vulnerability.

Yeah.

And you know, I tell kids a lot when they have this history. You actually have to work harder at not crossing that line because you have a vulnerability genetically. You sure?

That possibility of becoming an addict yourself. So you have to work harder. My sister, she was sexually abused and that caused a lot of attachment challenges in our home.

She was very angry, very angry, rightfully so. You know, she was violated and she was a little girl and that anger just caused a lot of conflict in our family.

And really she became disorganized in her attachment. She couldn't trust anybody basically.

And she went into residential treatment center and you know, it just came to a point when they're 18, she said, I'm out of here. And she hasn't received the proper mental health that she needs. She has been diagnosed with bipolar.

She needs to be on medication, that needs to be treated with medication. And you know, when they're adults, it's very hard, you know, to tell them what to do. They're adults, they have their autonomy.

And my brother, you know, he needs medication too, but he refuses to take it. So it's challenging. It's challenging. And you know, when I mean I was raised in the 70s, they were born in the 80s.

You know, in the 80s we didn't have all the information we have today and the treatment modalities like we had today.

I mean, my sister and my mother needed attachment family therapy and she therapist took my sister right in the room and just, she talked just with the therapist. That's not what she needed.

She needed my mom in there with her, building that trust, repairing the attachment trauma so that she feels safe in any relationship and safe enough to share her vulnerabilities. So yeah, it's been challenging.

I'm glad you bring up the different modalities and I want to talk more about that. I can speak personally in my family. So I have two adopted children. One is three, one is eight.

They both came to us when they were just, you know, my daughter was three and a half weeks old and Dominic, my son, was four days old. And the dynamic thing is something that we're working through because for my eight year old, she has a lot of jealousy towards our son.

And it's just occurring to me, not just in this conversation, but just recently because we've put her in therapy, but it's therapy, just her and a therapist. And I have no idea really what's going on. It's play therapy and There's a confidentiality component.

So I don't really know what's happening, but it doesn't really seem to me like anything. I don't know, it doesn't seem like things are progressing in a way that I would like to. There's a lot of physical. She gets physical with him.

She also is neurodivergent. She's on the spectrum. She's autism and adhd. And so he annoys her. He's a toddler, so there's that. It's just tough in general.

But I'm beginning to think that maybe what we need is a family therapist so that we can all be together and work out the family dynamics. Because, you know, things were great. Like in her mind, it seems like things were awesome when it was just the three of us.

And then this interloper, and she actually has used that word. She's got a great vocabulary.

Wow.

He's an interloper. Came in and, you know, and sort of destroyed that triangle, that happy triangle that we had, in her opinion. And it's distressing.

It's distressing to us. And it's not all the time. Sometimes she can get along with him, but more often than not, it's not good. It can get physical.

There's a lot of screaming and now he's starting to imitate and reflect back her behavior to her and he's starting to hit and, you know, it's just not good.

So, yeah, I'm wondering about, in your opinion, and not that I'm going to go into a therapy session right now with you, but just, would we benefit from family therapy instead of just this one on one kind of a situation?

Yes.

Because when you're doing the family therapy, you know, adoptees, we need to build a lot of trust to be able to share our internal world, what's going on. And I love the phrase what's shareable becomes more bearable. And you know, when, when kids are acting out in aggression, they're binding so much.

It's.

She's binding so much so I can already, already feel there's so much going on inside of her that she needs to share and, and as her mother, to hold and contain that and have empathy. Right. For her pain.

Because my senses, it's triggering now I have to share Mommy and my dad, potentially lose Mommy, which is triggering her grief and loss. I've already lost one family, one mom. Am I going to lose you too now? I need reassurance. You're not going anywhere.

And I'm going to tell you adoptees do not feel secure. They. There could be at any moment, someone could pull the rug out and I could go elsewhere.

There is a part of adoptees that belief and it could be parent gets angry and they believe, oh, they don't want me anymore. They don't.

Yeah.

They perceive anger as a rejection. And these are even kids adopted at birth.

Right.

So there's this. The vulnerability of a potential grief and loss is. Is something that, you know, she could share with you in family therapy.

Now the other piece is finding a therapist, family therapist, who's adoption competent. And I can tell you, because I've been training them here, people still don't even ask on intake paperwork, was your child adopted?

Wow.

Still not seen as. As an issue.

Right.

It's not.

It's.

Oh, babies don't remember.

Right.

Their bodies remember. And it is considered trauma for that baby to separate from their birth mother. Right. At birth.

Yeah.

And. And in best practice today, they talk about that allowing.

And it can be hard for birth mothers allowing the birth mother to hold the baby after they're born so they both release the hormone oxytocin, which is crucial for bonding.

And I don't want to go on to too much research here, but there are research articles that talk about the root cause of ADHD is because of early traumatic stress that wasn't regulated for the child with their attachment figure.

And in the world of adoption, there's been talk about this, that at birth, when we remove a baby, they're actually, they have all this cortisol flooding in their system. They can just have that be held by the birth mother.

They'll release the cortisol and they're not going into the hands of their new caregivers all stressed out. And then it stresses the caregivers caregiver out. So it's incredible, the research about, yeah. Attachment and what gets stored in the body.

And it gets stored in the body and it needs to come out. And kids don't have the words for it.

Right.

It's preverbal, but they feel it. See? And with your daughter, she's just feeling, I potentially could lose you. And that's devastating for her.

Right, Right. She always says, like, you love him more. Like, always, she's saying like, you love him more. And we're like, we don't love him more. Like, we don't.

We love you both. Like, just because I love him, it doesn't mean that doesn't take away that I love you. We create more love. And it's just she. She Doesn't.

She's not getting that. On a gut level.

Yeah.

She hears what I'm saying, but she's not getting it.

Yes. And I'm going to say this too. Adoptees need a lot of validation.

And I'll always tell parents, because you're going to get, you know, eventually you're going to get. You're not my real mother.

Right.

And when we go to. Here's what happens for the adoptee. When we go to. I am your real. When we go to fixing what. What they need in that moment is I hear you. You unders.

You're saying, you're right. I'm not your. And I'll have parents use adoption competent language. I'm not your biological mother.

Yeah.

I'm the mother who adopted you. You're right. You see how we're. We're going into the feeling. So when she says, you don't love me and this is attachment parenting that I teach, it's.

I hear you. You believe that I don't love you. That must be so hard to think that I don't love you. I'm so sorry you feel that way. Like she's in pain about this.

Yeah. Instead of saying that's not true. Like, right. Yeah. Yeah.

And it gives me goosebumps because I had another kid. The parent kept saying, he's always yelling how stupid he is. And I always tell him, you're not stupid. And I say, I need you to do this.

Take a step back. The next time he says he's stupid, I need you to validate that with him. He believes he's stupid. I see that you believe you're stupid.

I'm so sorry you feel that way about yourself. And just sitting with that feeling because the kid is. The child is going to scream it louder and louder and louder until somebody gives this feeling.

Attention.

Yeah.

That's attunement. And that's called intersubjective experience. It's the parent experiencing the feeling with the child and then co regulating that feeling.

And we do it all the time. But as parents, because I'm parents too, we want to fix. You know, because we want to help our children. We don't want them to feel any. Right.

We want them to feel good.

Right.

But when we feel it, it's actually information to go, wow, I'm feeling sad about this. I'm going to feel sad about this with her.

Yeah.

I really learned this when. So my son has hearing loss and which was devastating for me because I thought I caused. Was my biological child and this is just a quick story.

He kept telling me, mommy, I couldn't understand him because he. He didn't develop language like other kids, and it was really for us. And he would cry because I'd say, tell me that again. So I could. Can.

Can hear what you're saying, can get what you're saying.

Yeah.

He just started crying. And I said, I'm so sad, too, that I can't. I don't know what you're saying right now. I'm sad about that, too.

And in that moment, I went attachment parenting. I get it. I get it. And it takes us to get out of our own way. Dealing with your child is so powerful and empowering. Term is feeling felt.

And that's how we help anyone through experience. But if we're getting, you know, activated by our child's pain, then that's about us. Right?

Right.

Why can't I. Why can't I be with this grief and loss? And I tell. I teach parents to be therapeutic parents.

You have to be good at grief because adoption is formed through grief.

That's right. Yeah.

And this is a big part of our. Our experience that we need people to feel. And it's not sympathy. It's empathy. And. And when I cried, and my mom was.

And she did the best that she could, she. Sometimes she would tell me, stop feeling sorry for myself. And I kept stuffing it. That's what caused my anxiety disorder.

What I really needed her to say to me is, I'm so sorry. Honey, you feel so sorry for yourself. You have a lot to feel sorry for.

Yeah.

I was grieving. I was in bereavement. I just left the whole life. And now I'm. Huh.

I mean, yeah.

And so. And I. I did talk to my mom as an adult, and I said, mom, I really need you to say this. And. And we had a corrective.

It's called a corrective emotional experience. She said, I'm sorry I couldn't say that to you. I didn't know what I know.

Yeah. Amazing.

And we hugged and we cried.

Yes.

That. And. And that didn't happen until I was an adult. But, yeah, we both understood it because now we're in the, you know, field understanding all these.

These vulnerabilities. And I don't know if you've read the book the Seven Core Issues and Adoption.

Okay. No, but I should. I'm gonna. I'm gonna put that in my notes. Yeah.

Yes. And it.

Okay.

Seven courses, and it's. There's grief, loss, anger, guilt, shame, intimacy, control. That are just vulnerabilities for. Actually, all members of the constellation.

Even aggressive parents have. May have their own loss due to not being able to have with their own biological child. That's a loss in and of itself.

Right.

Oh, and intimacy. I think I said intimacy. Guilty shame is the same.

Yeah.

So. Yeah. And birth parents, of course, have their own grief and loss.

Yep. I will link to that book in the. In the show notes and certainly be looking at it myself. Here's another one that I. I see that I blew a moment.

That I blew that. I will have to go back and try to figure out how to handle this one. She said to me in passing, and it's really strange the way she does this.

She'll drop these things in passing out of nowhere. It's not like we're talking about it or whatever. And then. And then. But then she doesn't want to talk about it after that.

So she said to me something about we were going to drop off clothes to donate clothes several weeks ago. And I was like, all right, I'm just gonna park here, and I'm gonna run outside, and I'm just gonna dump the clothes in the thing.

And then she said something about.

I don't know even how it came up, but she said something about, yeah, my birth mom didn't want me, and she just dropped this bomb, and I'm, like, in a parking spot that I'm not really supposed to be in. And I'm like. And, you know, of course. What did I say? I said, oh, Izzy, it's not that she didn't want you. She wasn't able to take care of you.

We've talked about this. She. You know. And so there I am again, like, kind of denying her experience, her emotional experience, because I want her to know that she was wanted.

But that's not really helping. So you tell me, what are the words? What should I say instead?

Well, first. Yeah. Her interpret. It's always the interpretation of what the child is telling themselves about their story.

So she's telling herself that her birth mother didn't want her. So I don't know what story you told her. So that's. I'm curious about that. So in that moment, and because I think that. That I do want to know is.

My question for you.

Sure.

Is to say, I'm so sorry you believe and feel that your birth mother didn't want you. That must be so hard.

Yeah.

Heal and hold.

Yeah.

And just sit with it. I'm so sorry you feel that way, honey. And don't go to the fixing. I'm so sorry you feel that your birth mother didn't want you.

That must be so painful, right? Just speak from your heart.

And here's the thing, because we believe that we're going to make this bigger, but in reality you're actually going to lessen and solve pain. It's not going to be as intense now after that.

And this is something that Sharon Roja actually, who wrote the book Seven Courses in Adoption, she says children are always recycling the story. So even though you may have told them two years ago, they're still recycling and have new questions as they're.

They're from concrete thinking to more abstract thinking between 7 and 10 years old. So they start asking why questions and. And if they don't get the answers from you, they're going to create the answers.

Yeah, usually not the good ones.

Right.

I told myself my parents died in a fire. I mean, I just made up something because nobody told me anything. So I'm curious what her story, what is the narrative for her?

Why her mother placed her for adoption. What is the story?

So what we've told her and we've always been very like about. We want to be truthful with her and we don't ever want her. We've. She knows that she's adopted. She's known since she was, you know, forever.

And what we told her is that her parents were too sick to take care of her and they could not take care of her. So we. Our dreams came true because we were looking for you and you came to us. And so that's basically what we said.

Now as she gets older, she'll fill in the gaps of like her parents were. Both had substance abuse and mental health issues. So that is why. And they were separated.

It's not that they gave her up necessarily, it's that, you know, the state separated them because she was born with. She was born addicted. And so. And then she had to have like a heart surgery at birth.

So she had a very traumatic thing and she was left in the NICU for three and a half weeks and never saw. So they had her, then they released the mom, the birth mom, and then they never came back, basically. And so she was there.

She doesn't really know that piece yet because I don't. It's like how many details do you give at a time and age appropriate? And you know, they. They had problems, they had drug issues.

They were not able to do that in for whatever the reason was, they weren't able to do that. So.

Oh, yes, yes. And so her interpretation. And here's what's so interesting. In her body, she feels like they didn't want her. She feels left unwanted.

So the more you just have empathy for that feeling and how well that must be. And so on my YouTube channel, which I call genetically speaking, that's another thing that I do in my spare time. It actually got.

I just kept hearing the word genetics and I'm like, oh, that's kind of like my name.

And it's.

I'm always talking about genetics and repeat hearing the early loss and reunion and talking about our birth families and. And so it's Jeanette J E A N E T T E Dash itically I C A L L Y Speaking about adoption, foster care and mental health.

And the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I did a training for an organization here in San Diego, how to tell your child their adoption or foster care story and how to explain difficult circumstances. Because that's the biggest piece for parents. And right. Developmentally, you know, at what age 3 to 6, what should you be focusing on? Right.

What are the proper books? How do you talk about it? How do you phrase things? Because often parents just don't have. There's some books, but there's not a lot.

Right.

And so I've broken it down. I have a whole playlist of videos by age. You can watch it. It's on my YouTube channel.

Amazing.

And. And then I break it down by difficult circumstances and speaking to the circumstance of drugs.

It's, you know, kids in any difficult circumstance, they need to understand the circumstance on its own. Like, why would anyone take drugs or alcohol? And as a parent, and then, and then even relay it to her story, but she doesn't know yet.

And if a baby is born drug exposed, sometimes they have to be hospitalized. Right. So it. When you have an opportunity and you'll. Now that we've had this conversation, you're going to start to have opportunity.

You'll see it in a TV show or something, right?

Yes. Yeah.

And then you start having these conversations until she understands why anyone would do drugs or alcohol. And then when she's an adolescent, because that's where the big questions come.

You're going to explain the context of that circumstance related to her family. And she's not going to be shocked. She may be confused or she may feel sad. Kids feel all different things. But. But you'll have an understanding.

And really what it does is it bridges compassion.

Because the reason why anyone does drugs or alcohol is because they're numbing pain and they're not receiving the proper mental health support need, or they haven't received the guidance and support and empathy. And her parents could have been traumatized. We have no idea. Right.

Until you, you know, do that research and see what you can find so that she gets more context. It's. And then. Then she understands, oh, it wasn't about me. It was about their addiction to drugs. And a parent who's addicted can't parent any baby.

Right.

My birthday.

Yeah.

Like, they have objectivity then, and it. It's not personal anymore. So how old is she again? How young is she?

She's eight.

Oh, she's eight. Okay. So, yeah, so that's your work to begin. You know, in it for any year old. How would you explain drugs or alcohol? And just right there.

And so one of my other interventions is the question box.

Okay.

So I say every family who's adopted a child has to have a question box. And this question box can be something special.

Have the child decorate it and tell them they can ask any questions about their story or anything, really, and put the questions in the question box. And they can choose one question at a time, which gets time stamped. So if you pick the question today, you time stamp it.

So if the question is, why was I adopted? I want to know this answer. The parent then has a whole week to go find that answer.

It becomes a stalling tactic, and it gives the parent an opportunity to go do the research.

Wow.

And then if we don't have the answer, and then we come back later, well, I have an answer to that question. Are you. I always ask kids, are you ready for the answer? Because sometimes they may not be ready. Yes. Okay.

And then you explain it age appropriate, and if you don't have the answer, it goes back in the question box, and it becomes an emotional container for that question. Because these kids are walking around with tons of questions, and it interferes with their learning and memory because they're preoccupied.

So it gets.

A lot of my interventions are about externalizing, getting it outside so we can have objectivity, look at it, understand it, and then you'll get questions at the darndest times, and it becomes a great tool for parents. That's a great question for the question box.

Yes. I love that.

Parents tend to answer way too much. They feel obligated to answer the question. And. And.

And it's basically how it fumbled and came together because a parent gave this child too much information. I go, oh, we have to put a stop on this. I go, the next time she asked a question, just write it down.

I love that. Oh, building in a pause.

Yes. Because you can be just taken off guard. Like you're saying she out of the blue.

Yeah.

My birth mother didn't want me. I mean, it's just, you know, because she's. Just. Because they're not actively talking about it, just not mean they're not actively thinking about it.

She's obviously actively thinking about.

Yes. Yes.

Really?

I know. And.

And it's funny because when I came back and I wanted to talk about it more, like, I gave her that quick answer and I was like, I want to talk about this more. This is really important. I really want to talk about it more. I have to go right now or I'm going to get a ticket or whatever. And.

And I ran, I came back and then she didn't. She didn't want to talk about it anymore. She was like, no, I'm fine. Like, I don't want to talk about it. And I was like, okay.

So I would recommend making a question box.

I love that.

Asking her. And it's actually in my. So another thing that I've done out of the. The YouTube channel, I created an animation called what is Adoption? It.

I always felt like, where's the PSA for kids? Like, what is it? And helping them make sense of, like, what is it? And then helping other kids understand what it feels like.

Right.

Adopt a child. And then I created that animation. Then I created what is foster care Animation? Because I had a child who didn't even realize she was in foster care.

I mean, it's just daunting. That happens. So we had to explain to her because she was actually going to be removed and placed with her biological grandparents.

And she was all confused about that.

Yeah.

And so with that, I wrote. I made the two animations into a children's book. And so amazing.

Adoption in there, it tells the child, you get to make a question box and your parent, you can give your questions to your parent to put in the box and they will answer them for you. So you can get the answers that you need to make sense of where your identity, where you come from. And I show samples of questions for kids.

So, you know, you. She's eight. It's a perfect book for her. And then you can. Well, let's make a question box for you, because I can imagine you have a lot of questions.

Yep, yep, yep.

Especially like, did. And. And here's where you go into the. The feelings again. Especially when you said that day did my mommy want me? You're questioning that?

And I would even write it down because adoptees and adoptees said this to me the other day. It's like a part of us, we feel like we're not seen. We don't exist because we don't exist in our family of origin. It's just like the whole.

Just doesn't exist. It's in the. Call it the ghost kingdom. It's there, but it doesn't really exist. We can't really feel it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And she just needs to be seen. Like, you see her having this experience of feeling unwanted.

Yeah.

Just validating. I. I see that you said that. Can I write that down on the card? Right. And let's write that question, did my mommy want me?

And then if she asks that question, she said she wants an answer to that question. We have a week, Rachel.

Y. That's right.

And you know, I'm happy to.

I call you and call me. Exactly.

And you know, the pieces that are so important, I believe, especially when there's this ambiguous loss of feeling, it's. Think about, did the mother. Was there anything that the birth mother did. Did she hold her? Did she name her? Did she. Was there anything? I don't know.

Yeah. Well, she walked into the hospital in Santa Monica and had her in a hospital, which was a really amazing thing that she did. You know, like, she.

She came to the hospital because she wanted to make sure that, you know, that. That you were going to be okay.

Healthy. Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. And. And the term. And there are terms to the wording. Adoption wording. We often get. We still use the words given up, which is not politically correct.

It's the birth mother made a plan for adoption because. Given up. How does a child interpret that?

Right.

I was given up. I wasn't.

Right.

And it's never about the child. Child. And so it's using the phrase your mom made. Your birth mother made a plan for adoption at the hospital.

But the weird thing is, just to be devil's advocate, she actually didn't make a plan.

Oh, she didn't.

She was removed. So that's like, you know, not.

Right. So that wouldn't be for your story for.

Right, right.

And I think to see. I liked what you just relayed.

Yeah.

Wanted her to be born, like, all.

Yeah. Safe and healthy.

And thank God she did that because they wouldn't have known that she had a genetic heart defect and she needed open heart surgery two days after birth. And because her mother had her in a hospital, is the only reason that her life was saved, really, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And I would need to like learn more about.

Right.

And I think just understanding, you know, her self esteem is compromised.

Yeah.

So whatever you can do to boost her self esteem. And that's just, you know, and I'll tell this too. You're not going to create a narcissist.

And I'm saying this like by saying, you're such a good artist. I love the way you color. Wow, you're really brave. Do you know that? You're really brave.

And the more eye contact you get and the more they're able to take it in and touch. When you touch a child, their whole brain lights up.

So when you want to convey something meaningful, purposeful, hold their hands, tell them, get that eye contact. And she'll download it, literally her brain and body.

Yeah.

Because you'll tell her things and it'll go in one ear and go out of shoot until Right. Thousandth time.

Right.

She goes, you know what? I actually am a good artist. And you're like exhausted by that point, right? Yes, you are. But.

Right.

This is what we need. It needs for adult children.

Yeah, I love that. I love that.

It's funny because I didn't intend for this necessarily to be all about my family, but I think it can really help listeners because this stuff isn't really talked about very much.

And just the fact, if anyone's listening, just to know that there are therapists that specialize in foster care and adoption, I don't think that I even really. I had never thought about that before. And so that in and of itself is like, worth the price of admission.

But also I think that working through these things, these are probably common things that other people go through as well.

And there is a misconception that if the child was brought home as an infant, it's like, oh, well, then they don't really have that much trauma because they were brought home as an infant. And. And we know that that's not true. We were educated that that is absolutely not true. And it's also so important to me.

I'm interviewing more and more adult adoptees on this podcast because I think it's so important to hear the lived experience of people like yourself to really understand the, you know, the journey. So I thank you so much. We're almost at time and there's still things I want to ask you about.

I want to ask you about genetic mirroring, because when I went to your genetically speaking YouTube, I didn't have too long, but I kind of checked it out and that there was a video on genetic mirroring. Can you tell the listeners what that is and why that's important?

Yeah. So we all receive genetic downloading and that's the characteristics. When we stay in our families of origin, we learn their behaviors.

We know where we got our. The eyebrows from. We know where that little. The laughter or the energy.

There's physical characteristics and behavioral characteristics that we learn growing up in our families of origin.

Well, when you don't get that genetic mirroring, it impacts identity and knowing who you are and where you come from and what is your genetic predisposition. And it's. It's basically for children who are adopted and placed from foster care.

They're trying to figure out their genetic traits and there are physical characteristics. Where did I get my eye color? Where did I get the clef in my chin?

I learned when I had reunion with my birth father, I looked immediately, that's where I got the clef in my chin. It's validating. I know where I come from, I have a springboard. We don't. And so for adoptees, they don't have this springboard and they're this.

Again, the questions are endless. Where did I get my freckles from? My curly hair. I was a great dancer and I didn't know my birth mother was a dancer. I had no idea.

She came to New York City and I love performing. She came to New York City on a work visa to be a dancer.

Wow.

Had I known that, I probably would have pursued dance more because I had, I had great dance skills. And I was confused. I really, I was like. Because nobody in my adoptive family was involved in the arts.

And so I was confused by this genetic trait and I didn't know what to do with it. There are behavioral characteristics too. Like I said. Laughter, even tongue rolling is a genetic trait.

Intelligence, personality traits, you know, whether you're an introvert, extrovert, this all is genetically downloaded through your genetics. And so for adoptees, that's why open adoption and even.

Yeah, open adoption and you know, having search relien for your child so they, they can get this genetic download.

And most importantly, if they have siblings, because siblings share 50% of genetic traits and they'll get that genetic mirroring, that reflection back.

And you know, with, with transcultural adoptive families and transracial adoptive families, people, parents need to be more mindful of these, the loss of these genetic mirrors that these children need. You know, if you're adopting a child of color, they need to Be represented and see other kids in their neighborhood that look like them.

That's right. Yeah.

And so I even had one father. He. He. He started to realize, wow, we live in a white neighborhood, and I've adopted two children of color. He said, I'm now moving, and.

And I'm going to be the minority in the neighborhood. So powerful. He did that.

That's awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. I love that. Yep. We moved our son actually to a school. When we first came to New York from la, we were living in la.

We were in a school. Both kids were in a school that was. It's a great school. We loved it.

But there's, like, you know, one person of color on staff or two people of color on staff, but not enough. Like, the student body wasn't of color. And now we've moved our son to a place that is, I would say, 95% people of color.

Staff, administrators, teachers, students. And it's wonderful. And I feel really strongly about that. I feel very strongly.

I feel that that's our job, is to educate ourselves and to make sure that we are in community with African American people. He's African American. It's interesting because my daughter is Filipina and Japanese and also white.

And so it doesn't feel as pressing, although I know that's not true. It is pressing. And so I need to get more on that. About the Filipino side. And when we were in la, we were more successful with that.

We had a couple fam. Other families that were Filipino. And a teacher. She had a great beloved. Her preschool teacher was Filipino, and she really cares about that.

She talks about her Filipino side and how she really wants to be in touch with that. And we found out that she's actually Japanese. She's always loved Japanese culture.

And then I got in touch with an uncle, so now we're in touch with her Filipino uncle, and it turns out they're Japanese also. It's like. It is just unbelievable. So she loves everything Japanese, all Japanese culture, animation, like, all of that stuff. I digress.

But anyway, I totally agree about that transracial piece. And also, it's been a challenge for our family.

She noticed right away the differences between Dominic and us and felt that she doesn't do it as much anymore. But when she was younger, he came to us when she was 5, and she would be like, he doesn't match.

And we would see a black family and she'd be like, he belongs with them. And again, it's that thing of just like, no, that's not true, blah, blah. But instead of just being like, that's really interesting, Izzy.

Why do you think that? Or, you know, like to just continue the conversation. And that's been challenging also, I'll be honest.

And to piggyback off of that, you're not going to believe this, but there is a book, okay. Called Mommy Doesn't Match.

Okay.

And it's a Caucasian parent of.

I love it.

Color.

Great.

How that's. That's going into the experience right there.

Yeah, yeah.

Mommy doesn't match.

Right.

Like, just acknowledging.

Yep.

Just acknowledging. And then kids are like, oh, okay, thanks. Can I go outside and play now?

Right, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. We get caught up in. In the, you know, what's the politically correct way to handle this? And.

Right.

It's. It's. What's the word? It's. It's something that feels almost taboo. Like, we don't talk about that, but.

Right.

To be talked about.

Yes.

In families where there's differences and. And to embrace those differences. Yeah. We all actually are different.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's okay. I had one family. She. She had adopted, so six children. And every year she would do cultural day and they would. Each child. I love this.

They would each make their cultural dish from their family of art and they would all share their dishes together.

I love that.

And like, that's just a simple little. Right. They just made it a tradition every year. Family, culture, embracing our differences.

Yeah.

And taking pride in who we are again. You know, lifting. Building that self esteem, Building that resilience.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I feel like I could talk to you all day. This is. It's been such a great conversation.

I know I could talk all day, too.

I know. I can see that and I love that.

Lots of videos that I talk a lot and I have so many to make.

Yes. Well, what you're doing is. Is incredible. It's needed if people want to work with you. Are you available for.

Can people get in touch with you through your website? Are you still doing. Are you actively still, you know, doing therapy with people and that kind of thing?

Yes, I am. And in the state of California, I am licensed, so I can. In the state of California. And I have.

Gotcha.

I always have associates that I'm training to be adoption competent. And so I have two therapists on my staff also, when I get full, they take on clients as well. They are adoption and foster care competent.

And I do consultations a lot because sometimes, you know, you don't have to do traditional therapy. Parents just need some advice. Know, tell me your situation and then because I really want to empower parents to be therapeutic parents.

That's why all those videos up there are really parents. Like yeah, you have a wealth of information now and you know there's a lot of interventions as I'm like intervention person.

Yeah.

Because you need the tools. And so yeah, you can reach out to me@y therapy.com.

Okay.

Ytherapy.com.

Yep.

And what else? Oh yes. So Celia center has support groups also. Those are free. They're on Zoom. You join our mighty network. I can give you the link to that.

Okay, absolutely. I'll link to all of the stuff in, in the show, notes for people. And also of course if you go to your website, you.

You can follow through to any of these things that she's talking about. Yep. Great.

And then I wanted to say one last thing is yes. There's an organization called Pesi P E S I and okay. They train therapists and social workers across the country.

And I just wrote I will have my first published book because I've been self publishing all my books. My first published book which will be the Trauma Traumatized Child Toolkit.

And there's tons 160 interventions and parents can use these interventions coming out next year.

Congratulations, that's awesome.

Thank you so much. All summer. And it's just really like I started making interventions because I said I wish I had this as a kid.

I wish I had an anger bag because I was angry and I wish I had my sad bag because I was cool crying. These little pieces just help so much and it helps you as parents have because you know, you there's like what do I do? Well, yeah, here you go.

And they're all diy. Here's how you do it. This is what you need. It's broken down materials. So I don't have a link to that yet.

Okay.

Happy to give you that information and you can share it.

Yes, that would be great.

You get on my email list. Center.

Okay. Celia Center. And also I'm sure they can follow you on Instagram. What's your Instagram?

Jeanette Yoff.

Okay, great.

Yeah, I post like trainings I'm doing.

Yeah.

So you're more than happy to attend a training? Usually anything that I post public is for the public.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that like one thing that just really again to just bring this idea home is that just being.

Because it's not necessarily coming up in the household. It doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be addressed. Or talked about is really what I'm getting.

That's right.

Yeah.

I like to say we have puzzle pieces, imaginary, just floating above our heads and we're just trying to put the pieces together and we can't. We can't do it all by ourselves. Need our parents. We really, truly do. We need you to help us make sense of all of these questions.

Yep. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time and it's just been so wonderful. What a valuable session. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

This has been the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to adopt. Produced by Aquarius Rising, edited by Jason Serubi at Split Rock Studios.

Original music composed by Joe Fulginetti. For more information or to stay in touch, visit from foster to forever.com.

that's from foster the number two forever.com and stay connected with us on Instagram at foster2forever forever podcast. That's foster the number two forever podcast. We'll see you next time.